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 Name and Time of the Doctor

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Ianotimelord
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PostSubject: Name and Time of the Doctor   Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:31 am

Can someone explain to me that in the Name of the Doctor that he ends up on Trenzalore and the Tardis becomes his tomb. Yet it doesn't quite work out like that in Time. Was time re-written? Does the events of Name not happen? I know Moffat explained some of it but I am still confused.
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Calixar
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:59 pm

Moffat pretty much makes stuff up as he goes and doesn't overly-concern himself with continuity.
When he found himself stuck with Matt leaving sooner than anticipated, he just pulled something out of his [censored].
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fatsal
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:18 pm

My take is that the Trenzalore we see in Name is in the (far?) future, and the one shown in Time is Trenzalore at an earlier point. For one, they look vastly different.

But perhaps more importantly, in Time, we learn that The Doctor has been keeping an accurate count of his regenerations, and is fully aware that he's run out of them. It makes sense that he would assume that whatever happened on Trenzalore during Time would result in his death. The one thing he didn't foresee is being bestowed a whole new set of regenerations by the Time Lords. For me, because he clearly didn't die in Time (as he expected he would) means that the Trenzalore of Name could still be in his future.
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Calixar
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:39 pm

The implication was that the graveyard was the result of the war. The Doctor said it was a battlefield graveyard.
A more coherent handling would have involved Matt Smith staying another season... Episiode by episode, we would have seen time go by. The dinner with Clara's family would have been handled exactly the same, only split up over episodes.
The controversial part (because that's what I do, right?) would be that the Doctor loses. He saves this one pocket of people on Trenzalore (which would have had more than one town) by sacrificing his own life, fully believing that this was the end. This is the moment when Clara manages to get back.
She is there when the last survivors of Trenzalore place the Doctor's body in it's "tomb."
She is involved in the creation of this massive graveyard.
She lives out the rest of her life there, mourning the one time she failed to save the Doctor.
Hundreds of years later an earlier version of herself and the Doctor come to Trenzalore. The events of "Name" happen (abbreviated version, of course), but we actually see them leave Trenzalore. However, before they get into the younger TARDIS, the Doctor sees a grave marked, "Clara Oswald." He kneels by it, but then Clara approaches and he hurries her into the TARDIS so she will not see her own grave.
As the TARDIS dematerializes, a small chrono-strand similar to what we saw in "Name" rises from Clara's grave and a new, young version of her emerges, with memory of growing old there. She is devastated when she sees the huge TARDIS, and makes her way toward it. On the way there she sees the remains of the building where the Crack was in the cellar. She makes her way down into and, as she approaches the wall, the crack starts to glow.
Clara unleashes her anger on the Timelords, whom the Doctor died protecting, not believing they even hear her.
Then, regeneration energy emerges from the crack, goes to the dying TARDIS, and brings Capaldi to be. The TARDIS also regenerates.
And, in the meantime, some, more satisfying, explanation of the Silence would unfold.
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fatsal
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:09 am

Now that seems confusing! Plus, it regenerates Capaldi out of thin air? That seems to violate tradition a bit.

I just re-watched Name, and one thing I had forgotten is that when The Doctor is weakened by the paradox, he describes the chrono strands as "my own personal time tunnel, all my days, including the ones I haven't lived yet". That places the Trenzalore of Name clearly in his future.

The battle in Time, IMO, is clearly not the battle that results in the Trenzalore of Name (but there's evidence that 11 mistakenly thought it would be). For one, The Doctor doesn't die and the TARDIS is not destroyed. So either the Time Lords' intervention in Time erased the grave from Name, or some future version of the Doctor will revisit Trenzalore and "die in battle among millions". Personally, I hope it's the former, if only because The Doctor shouldn't know where he ends up. The thought of watching Capaldi and all future Doctors with the idea that one of them must eventually end up dying on Trenzalore seems way too limiting to me.
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Ianotimelord
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:05 am

I like that idea fatsal, the Doctor eventually dies on Trenzalore but at some point in the future.
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:28 am

Moffat did say in DWM that he is not done with Trenzalore yet and that he's surprised that people thought that Time of the Doctor finished that story arc (unfortunately)....

So I'm also going with the theory that Trenzalore in Name of the Doctor is in the future of the Trenzalore of Time of the Doctor, meaning that we'll probably see Trenzalore again. Let's hope it's not as crap this time around... I just didn't get the sense of war, destruction and threat in Time. To be honest, I didn't get the sense of a good story either... *ahem*

And, as Fatsal said, I hope that it isn't definitely his final resting place, so I hope that time is rewritten or something.
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Calixar
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:45 am

Not from "thin air," from the Doctor's remains. There are numerous ways you could account for it. For instance, that strand that is, as you say, his "own personal time tunnel, all [his] days," that IS the Doctor. The DNA of every previous regeneration is in there. Past versions would not notice the extraction of a touch of hair, skin tissue, blood to be used for creation of a new body.
Don't overthink it. This is the story of a man travels through time and space in a box that's "dimensionally transcendent," carries what is, essentially, a magic wand, and can morph into a new person if he gets killed. It need only make cursory sense to be satisfying. If I want more solid science, I'll watch something else. Who is about the ideas and ideals.
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:53 am

I have always assumed that Name Trenzalore is/was the future of Time-T, but the events of Day changed that future by releasing the Timelords, who, when they gave the Doctor new regenerations, changed his future so that Name-T would not happen.
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:22 am

Calixar wrote:
Not from "thin air," from the Doctor's remains. There are numerous ways you could account for it. For instance, that strand that is, as you say, his "own personal time tunnel, all [his] days," that IS the Doctor. The DNA of every previous regeneration is in there. Past versions would not notice the extraction of a touch of hair, skin tissue, blood to be used for creation of a new body.
Don't overthink it. This is the story of a man travels through time and space in a box that's "dimensionally transcendent," carries what is, essentially, a magic wand, and can morph into a new person if he gets killed. It need only make cursory sense to be satisfying. If I want more solid science, I'll watch something else. Who is about the ideas and ideals.

I'm not over-thinking. Certainly in a show this wide open, nothing is off-limits, but I was just saying that having a new Doctor regenerate from remains would violate the long-standing show tradition of seeing the outgoing Doctor turn into the new one.
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:34 am

The Doctor originally died on Trenzalore as an old man fighting the daleks one last time.

Clara changed history (again) by convincing the Time Lords to intervene.

Time changed.
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:51 pm

So, I can get, then, The Master coming back, having been retrieved from the Eye of Harmony...

But is Rassilon not Rassilon? Just another Time Lord with the same name?
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pixletwin
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:07 pm

Rassilon was THE Rassilon, only resurrected. Same with the master.
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:17 pm

If Rassilon can be resurrected after 1,000,000 years, why not the Doctor after a few hundred?
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:36 pm

Who said the doctor couldn't be resurrected?
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Calixar
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:49 am

fatsal
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:56 am

fatsal wrote:
Calixar wrote:
Not from "thin air," from the Doctor's remains. There are numerous ways you could account for it. For instance, that strand that is, as you say, his "own personal time tunnel, all [his] days," that IS the Doctor. The DNA of every previous regeneration is in there. Past versions would not notice the extraction of a touch of hair, skin tissue, blood to be used for creation of a new body.
Don't overthink it. This is the story of a man travels through time and space in a box that's "dimensionally transcendent," carries what is, essentially, a magic wand, and can morph into a new person if he gets killed. It need only make cursory sense to be satisfying. If I want more solid science, I'll watch something else. Who is about the ideas and ideals.

I'm not over-thinking. Certainly in a show this wide open, nothing is off-limits, but I was just saying that having a new Doctor regenerate from remains would violate the long-standing show tradition of seeing the outgoing Doctor turn into the new one.

You mean like Sylvester McCoy regenerating into Sylvester McCoy? Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:01 am

I never said he couldn't be resurrected, I just said that resurrection would violate the long-standing show tradition of seeing one Doctor transform into another. Anything's possible in a show about a guy in a time-traveling police box.

But resurrection and regeneration are two different things. Can you imagine the numbering controversy if they did that? Would he be the 13th Doctor or Doctor 2.0, version 1? It just seems of little dramatic value to me, on a show in which the main character already can periodically "die" and regenerate, to kill and bury him and then have him come back. Besides, if they "killed" him, would anyone really believe he's gonna be "dead" for more than the remainder of that episode?
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:04 am

Scary wrote:
You mean like Sylvester McCoy regenerating into Sylvester McCoy? Wink

 Wink 
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:57 am

I think that IF the Doctor had died fighting the Daleks, it might have led to the Name graveyard. The Daleks would wipe out everyone on Trenzalore, and maybe the Church would have devoted themselves to burying the casualties. But the events of Day changed that, breaking that causality loop, and now it's a new timeline. So the graveyard on Trenzalore is prevented, the Doctor's death is prevented, and the Doctor has 'found a new destination' like Tenant told him to do in Day.


The TARDIS control room in Name Tardis Tomb is clearly the current one, and in Name, the Doc would have known he was the last regen. So the days 'that he hasn't lived yet' would be from the end of Name until Time, and the 900 years that he lasts defending Trenzalore. It makes sense. Kinda. Maybe the Great Intelligence will break free of that alternate time line, and him going through the Doctor's past will cause him to become the Valyard.
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:36 am

I always figured the Trenzalore in Name was what would have resulted had Clara not convinced the Time Lords to aid the Doctor.

Honestly though, the time space continuum has been a big ball of lunacy since Series 5, so I'm just rolling with the punches for right now. Moffat's got great ideas, but not exceptionally great execution. Which is still a sight better then RTD's obsession with the Daleks (and when not about the Daleks, involves a Dalek-like creature).
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:10 am

More fuel for the fire, although I totally agree with what he's saying. The numbering is pretty much for us fans. In-universe, he is simply "The Doctor".

Steven Moffat: “There is no Such Character as the Twelfth Doctor”
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:21 am

"It’s purely us lot, us fans, wittering on about calling him the Third or the Fourth Doctor – which is actually quite an unpleasant thing to do." ~ Moffat

Well that wouldn't have happened if you hadn't messed it up, Steve... Rolling Eyes

Either way, the numbering of the Doctor is very simple and easy to understand, I'm not sure why there's still a fuss about it. It was all cleared up and explained in 'Time of the Doctor.'
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:38 pm

Aye. He's the twelfth actor to play the Doctor, but he's the fourteenth incarnation.
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PostSubject: Re: Name and Time of the Doctor   Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:53 am

I hate Steven Moffat. Mad
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