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 S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)

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Rust
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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:02 am

I really enjoyed Capaldi's comments after his Doctor had "Settled down" and was trying to convince Clara to keep traveling with him.

"You can't see me, can you? You look at me, and you can't see me? Do you know what that's like? I'm not on the phone, I'm right here standing in front of you. Please just...just see me."

I think we've all had moments like that.
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fatsal
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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:04 am

I thought that was written and performed beautifully. I love it when they give insight into what the regeneration experience is like for The Doctor.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:51 pm

When we first see John Hurt, Clara says she doesn't recognize him... and she's seen all of the Doctors... clearly, she has memory of all the Doctors she helped.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:54 pm

Perhaps inside the Doctor's time stream? Sure. But then again, all 10 of them run past her just before then. She still manages to incorrectly enumerate the Doctors in Time of the Doctor and demonstrates no familiarity with 10 at first.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:45 pm

I don't think Clara-Prime (what I call the true, present-day version of Clara) retains memories of her saving the various Doctors throughout time, but she did say she saw "all eleven faces" in The Doctor's time stream (not knowing Hurt's repressed incarnation). She knows The Doctor has looked different in the past, but doesn't KNOW any of them outside of War, 10, 11 and now 12.

Now knowing the Doctor changes and losing YOUR Doctor aren't the same thing, and I think it wasn't out of character for her to have a hard time accepting 12 at first. It's sort of like seeing pictures of your parents when they were young - you know they looked and acted differently back then, but you have no attachment to the version of them in the old photos. YOUR parents are the ones as YOU knew them.

Speaking of "all eleven faces", it's another indication that the events of Time of the Doctor changed The Doctor's future. If Clara was in the dead Doctor's time stream (and Name's Trenzalore is still in The Doctor's future), then she should have seen incarnations past 11, as the laser spaghetti was The Doctor's remains from some point in his future. That she only saw up to 11 indicates it was 11 who originally died at Trenzalore - a death Clara subsequently prevented in Time.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:30 am

Theoretically, the Doctor still died at Trenzalore, since Capaldi is technically the Doctor 2.1 - the first incarnation of a brand new set of 13. We're not really sure how the additional regenerations operate on a temporal aspect. Yes, they are definitely the same individual, but do they leave the same imprint upon the fabric of reality, or do the laws of the universe identify it as a brand new entity?

But let's be honest here. I try not to dwell too hard on Name and Night, because Moffat's track record in keeping these overly convoluted balls in the air is not promising. Much like restarting the universe, Clara scattering through the Doctor's time stream was a "moment of cool" rather then a intelligent story driven moment. By all rights, Clara should have been irretrievable after such a venture.

And we still don't know why River was still projecting after Clara stepped into the time stream, how the Doctor could step into his own time stream, or how they got back out again.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:41 am

One of the main things I dislike about Moffat is that he says he likes plot holes and "mysteries." As someone who is really very OCD about continuity and consistent canon, he drives me up the wall when he does things like this that can't be explained or reconciled.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:21 pm

Rust wrote:
Theoretically, the Doctor still died at Trenzalore, since Capaldi is technically the Doctor 2.1 - the first incarnation of a brand new set of 13. We're not really sure how the additional regenerations operate on a temporal aspect. Yes, they are definitely the same individual, but do they leave the same imprint upon the fabric of reality, or do the laws of the universe identify it as a brand new entity?

But let's be honest here. I try not to dwell too hard on Name and Night, because Moffat's track record in keeping these overly convoluted balls in the air is not promising. Much like restarting the universe, Clara scattering through the Doctor's time stream was a "moment of cool" rather then a intelligent story driven moment. By all rights, Clara should have been irretrievable after such a venture.

And we still don't know why River was still projecting after Clara stepped into the time stream, how the Doctor could step into his own time stream, or how they got back out again.

No, The Doctor only "died" in the sense that he always "dies" and is regenerated. The laser spaghetti was the remains of a Doctor who had used up all his regenerations. 11 would have died (in the real sense) on Trenzalore without Clara's intervention, but since he was granted a new set of regenerations, that future grave was wiped away.

River explained that she was able to linger because Clara was still alive. Plus, that was a great moment for Matt and Alex, and a nice closure for River's character.

I never understand why some fans think some trivial, fictional "technical" rule should get in the way of great storytelling? Would Name have been better somehow without River's goodbye? Imagining River simply fading when Clara jumped in is a much lesser ending, IMO. The only upside to that ending would be that River could come back (I suppose she could anyway), but I got the distinct impression that was her swansong.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:27 pm

Scary wrote:
One of the main things I dislike about Moffat is that he says he likes plot holes and "mysteries." As someone who is really very OCD about continuity and consistent canon, he drives me up the wall when he does things like this that can't be explained or reconciled.

I hear ya, but in a show with 50+ years of writers, directors, producers, actors and showrunners, "continuity" and "consistent canon" are relative at best.

Besides, who said Clara couldn't be retrieved from the timestream? The Doctor could have been wrong (and obviously, was). And thanks to Deep Breath, we now know he how much he hates being wrong in public. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:09 pm

There's a throwaway reference to the Doctor building a barn that is leaking dimensional properties on Trenzalore in Time of the Doctor. One could assume the Doctor created something on Trenzalore that resembled the "trap" from Name to not destroy the Web of time. This could also explain why the Doctor's time stream only shows the 13 Regenerations known to him on Trenzalore. Not an idea I subscribe to, per se, but one that's easy enough to smooth out those wrinkles. (Better than the way they handled the TARDIS exploding.)

I still think Name of the Doctor suffers from us not seeing the Great Intelligence mucking about the Doctor's time stream in the same way Clara does. They could have explained away the Valeyard and the Shalka Doctor in one fell swoop!
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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:08 pm

fatsal wrote:
I hear ya, but in a show with 50+ years of writers, directors, producers, actors and showrunners, "continuity" and "consistent canon" are relative at best[i].

Of course, but that doesn't mean it's at all impossible to make some sort of an effort to keep it consistent. It'll never be perfect but it could be a lot better than it is now. From what Moffat has said and written himself in DWM, he gives off the vibe that he purposely leaves and creates holes for his own fun. I can't go with that, personally.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:23 pm

TinDogRory wrote:
I still think Name of the Doctor suffers from us not seeing the Great Intelligence mucking about the Doctor's time stream in the same way Clara does. They could have explained away the Valeyard and the Shalka Doctor in one fell swoop!

Possibly, but a solid story must be self-contained. Considering how many new fans NuWho has gained, it probably wouldn't make for a good narrative to explain away a nearly 30-year old character only a fraction of the audience knows about. GI did mention the Valeyard IIRC, though, and that's probably as good an explanation as we'll get.

It would have been cool to see the GI mucking around in the Doctor's timeline, but I would think it was probably hard enough finding clips of old Docs for Clara to interact with. I think the story worked just as well with it being implied.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:43 pm

Scary wrote:
fatsal wrote:
I hear ya, but in a show with 50+ years of writers, directors, producers, actors and showrunners, "continuity" and "consistent canon" are relative at best.


Of course, but that doesn't mean it's at all impossible to make some sort of an effort to keep it consistent. It'll never be perfect but it could be a lot better than it is now. From what Moffat has said and written himself in DWM, he gives off the vibe that he purposely leaves and creates holes for his own fun. I can't go with that, personally.


To each his own, of course, but I think Moffat's done a good job so far. Sure, not everything he writes is gold, but so many of the best episodes of NuWho have his byline.

I too prefer a certain internal consistency like any good nerd, but never at the sake of a good story. My opinion is that the concept of a 2,000-year-old alien in a time-traveling police box is so fantastic that it begs for stories that push the limits, so it gets a certain amount of leeway from me. Would you rather keep writers neatly in a continuity box and only include things that jibe with everything ever said on the show for 50 years or have a writer tell an amazing new story like Blink that breaks almost every rule?

Besides, when they have to, they'll make up something to get them where they want to be narratively, just as they always have. Twelve regeneration limit? Crack in the wall is pocket Gallifrey. Too confusing to have old Matt Smith regen into Capaldi? There's now a regeneration "reset". Need to save money on production costs? Exile The Doctor to Earth. Heck, original actor too ill to continue on hit show? The main character can regenerate into an entirely new actor.

That's the great thing about fiction - they literally make it up as they go along. Hopefully the ride is so good you don't stop to consider plot holes too much. If you happen to notice one or two, well, that's what "wibbly wobbly" is for. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:54 pm

fatsal wrote:
TinDogRory wrote:
I still think Name of the Doctor suffers from us not seeing the Great Intelligence mucking about the Doctor's time stream in the same way Clara does. They could have explained away the Valeyard and the Shalka Doctor in one fell swoop!

Possibly, but a solid story must be self-contained. Considering how many new fans NuWho has gained, it probably wouldn't make for a good narrative to explain away a nearly 30-year old character only a fraction of the audience knows about. GI did mention the Valeyard IIRC, though, and that's probably as good an explanation as we'll get.

It would have been cool to see the GI mucking around in the Doctor's timeline, but I would think it was probably hard enough finding clips of old Docs for Clara to interact with. I think the story worked just as well with it being implied.

The latter statement is more facetious than anything else. Practicality of CGIing Grant into old clips aside, what threat does the GI going into the Doctor's time stream actually pose? It's not exactly clear and feels like a plot deficiency. A single scene of the GI telling the Doctor to get into the wrong TARDIS and then a scene of it getting captured would have cinched it up quite a bit. Or of him trying to "steal" the Doctor's regenerations with Clara thwarting him throughout time.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:05 am

I get what you're saying, but as a season finale and Matt Smith's last regular episode it had to 1) wrap up the mystery of the Impossible Girl, 2) provide some closure to the Matt Smith era and 3) set the stage for the 50th special.

GI is clearly a bad guy, has evil looking henchmen in the Whispermen, and does something that forces Clara into action which explains to us how Clara seems to have died twice before, provides a nice farewell to River and neatly introduces us to the War Doctor. That seems to be the story they wanted to focus on. The details of whatever plot device the villain-of-the-week uses to get the characters into action really is of secondary importance, and was handled well enough in dialogue and acting to convey the threat, IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:26 am

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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:08 pm

Rust wrote:
I really enjoyed Capaldi's comments after his Doctor had "Settled down" and was trying to convince Clara to keep traveling with him.

"You can't see me, can you? You look at me, and you can't see me? Do you know what that's like? I'm not on the phone, I'm right here standing in front of you. Please just...just see me."

^ Best scene in the episode.


Regeneration episodes are always tricky.  The Doctor often spends most of them trying to figure out who he is now, and the main story or episode is kind of underwhelming, leaving the companion(s) to carry the epsisode (think Spearhead from Space part one, Robot part one to a point, Castrovalva part one, most all of Time and the Rani, Christmas Invasion).  That is the case here, in my opinion.  Everything leads up to the scene Rust decribed above.  Everything before that is just kind of "meh," but I give it a pass because, again...it's a regeneration episode.

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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:15 pm

SeaDevil wrote:
Rust wrote:
I really enjoyed Capaldi's comments after his Doctor had "Settled down" and was trying to convince Clara to keep traveling with him.

"You can't see me, can you? You look at me, and you can't see me? Do you know what that's like? I'm not on the phone, I'm right here standing in front of you. Please just...just see me."

^ Best scene in the episode.


Regeneration episodes are always tricky.  The Doctor often spends most of them trying to figure out who he is now, and the main story or episode is kind of underwhelming, leaving the companion(s) to carry the epsisode (think Spearhead from Space part one, Robot part one to a point, Castrovalva part one, most all of Time and the Rani, Christmas Invasion).  That is the case here, in my opinion.  Everything leads up to the scene Rust decribed above.  Everything before that is just kind of "meh," but I give it a pass because, again...it's a regeneration episode.


I agree with you SeaDevil.
This one wasn't the best in my personal opinion. I just watched it today and am still in no way used to the 12 (13th if your accurate) Doctor. Even though I LOVED the tenth Doctor, I took to Matt Smith as soon as I watched "The Eleventh Hour" so... I'm wondering has anyone else taken a little longer to "get used to"  Capaldi?
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PostSubject: Re: S8E1: Deep Breath (SPOILERS)   Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:10 pm

I really don't like Capaldi. He's tied with Colin Baker for last place in my book.
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