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 S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)

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Cruel Angel
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Sun May 19, 2013 8:38 pm

Why can't he go back and save Katarina, or Sara K?

Why not go back and stop the Dalek Invasion of Earth from ever happening?

Why can he interfere at times (on earth, or other planets), but at other times not?



It's ALWAYS been like that.

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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Sun May 19, 2013 8:42 pm

The Great intelligence said the Doctor had future names

The Storm

The Beast

The Valeyard

I agree that there should have been more fire and brimstone for going to his Grave.

The one problem i have is I want Character Options to make that Large Scale Tardis. I could put it on the lawn well several lawns lol


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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Sun May 19, 2013 9:13 pm

bret_owen99 wrote:
Rocco wrote:
Wes Crayon wrote:


The rules. Why the heck should a time traveler visiting his/her own grave cause a problem? Why would that constitute crossing one's timeline "in the biggest way possible?" This from a dude who has actually met past incarnations of himself! And when they actually visited his grave, what happened? Sure, Simian and the Yawnmen showed up, but what were the actual repercussions for the Doctor's presence at his own grave? Nada. Winged demon Langoliers tried to devour everything because Rose stopped Pete from dying, and -- the way the Doctor made it sound, anyway -- this was So. Much. Worse.


Its a paradox. That part is explained.

I don't like that explanation (I agree with Wes Crayon). Why can't the Doctor save Rory and Amy? It's a paradox. Why can't the Doctor save River Song and return her to her parents? it's a paradox. Why can't the Doctor visit his grave? it's a paradox.

It's a paradox every time, and wibbly wobbly timey wimey, to me (my opinion) is bad writing for a time travel show. It' s like a child playing with his toys, and if you ask why he can't save one he replies "just because".

He just happens to be running into a lot of paradoxes. Its not like the concept is new to us (see series 3 and the master)
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Sun May 19, 2013 9:19 pm

bret_owen99 wrote:

I don't like that explanation (I agree with Wes Crayon). Why can't the Doctor save Rory and Amy? It's a paradox.

I haven't watched Angels in Manhattan yet but don't Amy and Rory get snatched up by Angels? Whose whole MO is effectively eating their future and depositing them in the past. They get the residual energy from all those should have been lived days.

Theoretically that should be able to be worked around - since the Doctor and Martha escaped the fate - but depending on when Amy and Rory were grabbed, it might not be possible to bring them back since their future potential was devoured.

Also they should have left the show at The God Complex when they were meant to, but that's a whole other rant.

Quote :
Why can't the Doctor save River Song and return her to her parents? it's a paradox.

Because when River died, the Doctor hadn't met her yet. It's a fixed point in the Doctor's time line - he's always known River was going to die. He can't change that, not even for her. Everything has its time and everything dies. Interfering in that course is what lead to "The Time Lord Victorious"...and the Doctor found out how that worked out.


Quote :
Why can't the Doctor visit his grave? it's a paradox.

Interfering with your own time line. "Spoilers", essentially. The Doctor knows the planet on which he is going to die. That means, if the Doctor is unwilling to die when the time comes...he can avoid Trenzalore all together. He has advanced warning that this place is dangerous to him and can say "No" to ever going back.

Quote :
It's a paradox every time, and wibbly wobbly timey wimey, to me (my opinion) is bad writing for a time travel show. It' s like a child playing with his toys, and if you ask why he can't save one he replies "just because".

Time can be rewritten at some points, and some points are so critical that they cannot - must not under any circumstances - be rewritten. Yes you can go back in time and kill Adolf Hilter, discredit the National Socialist Party and keep World War II from ever happening...and thus cost us the Radar, Jet Engines, Rockets, CPR, Surgical Techniques, and a whole slew of other things that came out of that conflict.

The Doctor's rationale for not strangling the Daleks in their cradle during Genesis was that because the Daleks were a threat, the galactic community came together. Potential enemies were friends in light of the Dalek threat. The Doctor reasoned the Daleks did more good alive and active, then never having risen to power.

The reason the Doctor could not use the TARDIS to save Adric is because the ship became the extinction event for the Dinosaurs and Adric was caught up in that event. Interfering, even to save Adric, became impossible.

Time isn't a wibbley, wobbley ball made up of stuff. It's a wibbley, wobbley ball made up of stuff inside a glass cage and you never, ever take the ball out of the cage. The cage defines the ball.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Sun May 19, 2013 10:00 pm



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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Sun May 19, 2013 10:15 pm

“... on the Fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh, when no creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a question will be asked - a question that must never be answered” – Dorium Maldovar

1. Wasn't really fields was it? more like the doorstep of the dying tardis. I guess 'fields of trenzalore' sounds better than ' on the doorstep of the dying tardis'

2. at the fall of the eleventh....won't even go into this one now.

3. the Doctor failed to answer, Clara (if she had all of her memories back from JTTCOTT) knew his name, and she failed to answer, River said it, but only so we couldn't hear. So, what was the big deal about this line? doesn't seem that important anymore, does it?

4.the question was asked, and answered, which lead to Clara dying, the Doctor going in to rescue her, and leading to the Hurt Doctor. Is he the big baddie? The one who said 'Silence will fall!'? Did he somehow set into motion all of the events just to free himself?
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Sun May 19, 2013 10:22 pm

I trust Moffat to close all loose ends before he is done writing the show.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Sun May 19, 2013 10:22 pm

The Question Shouldn't be answered because the Hurt Doctor can't be released again. He's either the future Doctor or the Time War Doctor and he can't be allowed to roam free because he's not the Doctor.

It seems very likely the entirety of the 11th's reign has been a "trap" sprung by the Hurt Doctor. Cracks in time, rebooting the universe, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Sun May 19, 2013 10:32 pm

bret_owen99 wrote:
“... on the Fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh, when no creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a question will be asked - a question that must never be answered” – Dorium Maldovar

1. Wasn't really fields was it?

I think it was. GI mentioned it was a battlefield.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Sun May 19, 2013 10:42 pm

Didn't Tennant regenerate twice? So does that make Matt the 12th doctor anyways?
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Mon May 20, 2013 2:22 am

Rocco wrote:
Wes Crayon wrote:
The rules. Why the heck should a time traveler visiting his/her own grave cause a problem? Why would that constitute crossing one's timeline "in the biggest way possible?" This from a dude who has actually met past incarnations of himself! And when they actually visited his grave, what happened? Sure, Simian and the Yawnmen showed up, but what were the actual repercussions for the Doctor's presence at his own grave? Nada. Winged demon Langoliers tried to devour everything because Rose stopped Pete from dying, and -- the way the Doctor made it sound, anyway -- this was So. Much. Worse.
Its a paradox. That part is explained.
I'm sorry -- that was SO not explained. Maybe you came up with your own explanation, but the episode certainly didn't give a satisfactory one.

But let's pretend that whatever explanation you guys might come up with was actually present in the episode and that Moffat deserves credit for your fixing stuff that doesn't make sense. Tell me why a time traveler visiting his/her own grave should be problematic. More importantly, tell me why it should be more problematic than other things the Doctor has done (I've given a couple of examples in the above quote; I'm sure you can come up with others). And then tell me why, if visiting one's own grave is so bloody problematic, Langoliers didn't descend and the universe didn't break wide open when the Doctor did it. Nothing happened at all, actually.

Rust wrote:
Interfering with your own time line. "Spoilers", essentially. The Doctor knows the planet on which he is going to die. That means, if the Doctor is unwilling to die when the time comes...he can avoid Trenzalore all together. He has advanced warning that this place is dangerous to him and can say "No" to ever going back.
How is that interfering with one's own timeline? Considering that you're already dead, visiting your grave shouldn't change anything! (One could say it's a paradox because one can't be alive and dead at the same time, but then the location shouldn't really matter -- venturing anywhere during a time when one was dead should cause similar problems.) Also, it's not like the Doctor learned anything new by visiting Trenzalore, and it's not like knowing the location of one's grave necessarily says anything about how and where one will die. In typical Moffat fashion, it was probably just something he thought sounded cool and ran away with it without giving it thirty seconds of thought... possibly because he knows the fan community will devote hours of time and millions of words to explaining it for him. Stop doing Moffat's work for him, guys, and stop giving him a pass when you do! He's making millions; you're not getting a dime. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Mon May 20, 2013 2:55 am

In the Bells of St. John Clara said she got the Tardis phone number from a woman in the shop. We didn't find out who she was, guess it could of been River.

Fall of the 11th? He did fall down.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Mon May 20, 2013 7:32 am

I thought Silence did Fall when the question was asked....all of the Doctor's victories were erased....stars were going out. But then Clara steps in to reverse it all.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Mon May 20, 2013 1:24 pm

Ronpur wrote:
I thought Silence did Fall when the question was asked....all of the Doctor's victories were erased....stars were going out. But then Clara steps in to reverse it all.

good theory, but also inconsistent with what Moffat has set up before (like I said, i don't think he will go back to explain any of this, so like Rust said, the narrative is falling under the weight of ever-changing storylines).

THE DOCTOR: "Silence will fall when the question is asked..." DORIUM: "" Silence must fall" would be a better translation

From Vampires of Venice :
Rosanna: There were cracks. Some were tiny. Some were as big as the sky. Through some we saw worlds, and people. And through others we saw silence. And the end of all things.

In the Pandorica Opens we hear a mystery voice proclaim: "Silence will fall!" over and over again.

Series 6 we are introduced to aliens called the Silents, who are trying to kill the Doctor in Series 6. Then at the end of Series 6 Dorium says that the Silence was a religious order who considered themselves the "Sentinels of History".

So from the first Series: there are cracks in the Universe caused by the Tardis exploding, where some cracks had silence and the end of all things, with a mysterious voice proclaiming Silece will fall. Series 6 leads us to believe that the Silence/Silents are aliens intent on killing the Doctor, until the end of Series 6 where the Silence is a religious order (not just the aliens). Now, Series 7, Silence is the end of all things, but didn't really have anything to do with the cracks of the Universe, falling (or must fall, as Dorium said, which I would interpret as not answering the question), the aliens, or the religious order.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Mon May 20, 2013 1:31 pm

Ronpur wrote:
I thought Silence did Fall when the question was asked....all of the Doctor's victories were erased....stars were going out. But then Clara steps in to reverse it all.

That's generally how I saw it too... though they sort of glossed over it. I would have thought they'd have made a bigger deal of the event, if this is the one they've been hinting at for years.

The whole episode felt very rushed to me, but perhaps it is only serving as the first 'part' of the big story... which will be the 50th Anniversary special. After all, TBC in November!
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Mon May 20, 2013 1:49 pm

bret_owen99 wrote:
Ronpur wrote:
I thought Silence did Fall when the question was asked....all of the Doctor's victories were erased....stars were going out. But then Clara steps in to reverse it all.

good theory, but also inconsistent with what Moffat has set up before (like I said, i don't think he will go back to explain any of this, so like Rust said, the narrative is falling under the weight of ever-changing storylines).

THE DOCTOR: "Silence will fall when the question is asked..." DORIUM: "" Silence must fall" would be a better translation

From Vampires of Venice :
Rosanna: There were cracks. Some were tiny. Some were as big as the sky. Through some we saw worlds, and people. And through others we saw silence. And the end of all things.

In the Pandorica Opens we hear a mystery voice proclaim: "Silence will fall!" over and over again.

Series 6 we are introduced to aliens called the Silents, who are trying to kill the Doctor in Series 6. Then at the end of Series 6 Dorium says that the Silence was a religious order who considered themselves the "Sentinels of History".

So from the first Series: there are cracks in the Universe caused by the Tardis exploding, where some cracks had silence and the end of all things, with a mysterious voice proclaiming Silece will fall. Series 6 leads us to believe that the Silence/Silents are aliens intent on killing the Doctor, until the end of Series 6 where the Silence is a religious order (not just the aliens). Now, Series 7, Silence is the end of all things, but didn't really have anything to do with the cracks of the Universe, falling (or must fall, as Dorium said, which I would interpret as not answering the question), the aliens, or the religious order.

Hmmm... since I'm feeling mischevious, I'll suggest that the inconsistencies in the storyline are the result of the timeline trying to re-assert itself after all the Doctor's changes! Wink
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Mon May 20, 2013 4:10 pm

I'm just trying to figure out why the Stars keep going out. If the Doctor is being killed in every instance of history and all his victories are being reversed, then what big bad was going to wink out the stars? Davros and his Reality Bomb are the likely culprits, but without the Doctor there'd be no reason for Dalek Caan to emergency temporal shift into the Time War to save Davros.

I know the Doctor is important to the universe, but why does it seem every time his existence is threatened the universe collapses in on itself? Destroying a Star is a mighty giant task and the show's trying to tell me the Doctor has prevented that many suns from popping?
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Mon May 20, 2013 4:14 pm

We don't know what the repercussions of the Time War are without the Doctor. Could be without the Doctor there, the war rages on as the Daleks are unopposed throughout history .
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Mon May 20, 2013 4:34 pm

Ronpur wrote:
Fantastic!! But.....why was there no 8? That has to be something to do with The Hurt Doctor? Even though Clara said she all 11 faces. Did I miss him?

And now we now what a TARDIS looks like in it natural state!

Don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere but 8 was in it in a blink and you miss it. Just before the 2nd Doctor runs past Clara, he does. Which raises the question of whether or not there was a multi-Doctor adventure we've never seen on screen... besides the ones in the books, that is Razz

TinDogRory wrote:
Though I noticed we never did get a 10 encounter.

Yes we did. Clara watched him in the Library. He's in the bottom right corner of the screen. Took me a couple of views to spot him though!


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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Mon May 20, 2013 5:34 pm

bret_owen99 wrote:
Ronpur wrote:
I thought Silence did Fall when the question was asked....all of the Doctor's victories were erased....stars were going out. But then Clara steps in to reverse it all.

good theory, but also inconsistent with what Moffat has set up before (like I said, i don't think he will go back to explain any of this, so like Rust said, the narrative is falling under the weight of ever-changing storylines).

THE DOCTOR: "Silence will fall when the question is asked..." DORIUM: "" Silence must fall" would be a better translation

From Vampires of Venice :
Rosanna: There were cracks. Some were tiny. Some were as big as the sky. Through some we saw worlds, and people. And through others we saw silence. And the end of all things.

In the Pandorica Opens we hear a mystery voice proclaim: "Silence will fall!" over and over again.

Series 6 we are introduced to aliens called the Silents, who are trying to kill the Doctor in Series 6. Then at the end of Series 6 Dorium says that the Silence was a religious order who considered themselves the "Sentinels of History".

So from the first Series: there are cracks in the Universe caused by the Tardis exploding, where some cracks had silence and the end of all things, with a mysterious voice proclaiming Silece will fall. Series 6 leads us to believe that the Silence/Silents are aliens intent on killing the Doctor, until the end of Series 6 where the Silence is a religious order (not just the aliens). Now, Series 7, Silence is the end of all things, but didn't really have anything to do with the cracks of the Universe, falling (or must fall, as Dorium said, which I would interpret as not answering the question), the aliens, or the religious order.

I think the whole "silence must fall'' thing got messed up when they introduced the Silents as a group, and not "the lack of noise". Contradicted the quiet at the end of Vampires of Venice. I will say that Moffat is not J. Michael Staczynski......with the whole story arc planned out from the beginning.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Mon May 20, 2013 9:05 pm

Moffat clearly picks lines and places and refers to future events because they sound cool. That's really all there is to it, guys. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Tue May 21, 2013 11:09 am

I'm no Moffat-lover - I would consider myself one of his biggest critics - but I must say that if he does only pick lines, places and refers to future events to sound cool then it has been paying off (most of the time). I've rather enjoyed the River Song/Silence/Trenzalore story-arc, personally. I do miss stand-alone stories though.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Tue May 21, 2013 1:39 pm

Wes Crayon wrote:

How is that interfering with one's own timeline? Considering that you're already dead, visiting your grave shouldn't change anything! (One could say it's a paradox because one can't be alive and dead at the same time, but then the location shouldn't really matter -- venturing anywhere during a time when one was dead should cause similar problems.) Also, it's not like the Doctor learned anything new by visiting Trenzalore, and it's not like knowing the location of one's grave necessarily says anything about how and where one will die. In typical Moffat fashion, it was probably just something he thought sounded cool and ran away with it without giving it thirty seconds of thought... possibly because he knows the fan community will devote hours of time and millions of words to explaining it for him. Stop doing Moffat's work for him, guys, and stop giving him a pass when you do! He's making millions; you're not getting a dime. Razz

I was confused by this as well, until one stops to consider WHAT was in the Doctor's grave. Not a body, but a map/tear in space-time that mapped out the Doctor's entire life story. It's not a paradox, in and of itself... but if you ever wanted to interfere with your own timeline, that is a very powerful and fast way to do it, as demonstrated. The mother-of-all-spoilers!
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Tue May 21, 2013 9:12 pm

^Interesting, but negated by the fact that the Doctor treated visiting one's grave as a no-no for all time travelers -- not just himself. So it only works if we assume that all time travelers have space-time tears at their gravesites and/or are buried in dying TARDISes, and the episode gave us no reason to make such an assumption.

Scary wrote:
I'm no Moffat-lover - I would consider myself one of his biggest critics - but I must say that if he does only pick lines, places and refers to future events to sound cool then it has been paying off (most of the time). I've rather enjoyed the River Song/Silence/Trenzalore story-arc, personally. I do miss stand-alone stories though.
It's not working for me, but apparently I'm in the minority! The problem isn't so much picking lines because they sound cool, but picking those lines and then returning to them and trying to shoehorn them into an arc that's nowhere near as cool or coherent as I would hope.

Take River Song, for instance. I loved her first appearance, and the idea that somewhere in the far-away future the Doctor would have this awesome companion and possible wife -- and that the Doctor would grow into the awesome dashing finger-snapping bloke she described -- really resonated with me. But then Moffat actually wrote/filmed her story, and it was (for me) an incredible letdown: the development of their relationship was rushed and shallow, and the Smith's Doctor, like him or not, is not at all like the man River described (I'd imagine a Doctor more like Pertwee). I still like River -- she's fun! -- but her story really failed to deliver on the potential of her debut.

I feel that way about a LOT of what Moffat's done, and his laziness, or at least his tendency to frontload his writing, is getting really apparent with characters like the Whispermen. At least it took Moffat a couple of seasons to ruin River (from a story perspective); it took him multiple episodes to ruin the Weeping Angels. But he ruined the Whispermen in less than a single episode.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E14: The Name of the Doctor (SPOILERS)   Tue May 21, 2013 9:23 pm

Also it's not like the Doctor freaked out at the sight of his tombstone in Revelation of the Daleks.

I mean this with zero malice, but it's just Moffat's Season Ending "signature". RTD had his Dalek Fetish for the season enders - Moffat just likes putting the Doctor in a situation that results in alternate realities that are "impossible".

Wes Crayon wrote:

Take River Song, for instance. I loved her first appearance, and the idea that somewhere in the far-away future the Doctor would have this awesome companion and possible wife -- and that the Doctor would grow into the awesome dashing finger-snapping bloke she described -- really resonated with me. But then Moffat actually wrote/filmed her story, and it was (for me) an incredible letdown: the development of their relationship was rushed and shallow, and the Smith's Doctor, like him or not, is not at all like the man River described (I'd imagine a Doctor more like Pertwee). I still like River -- she's fun! -- but her story really failed to deliver on the potential of her debut.

I can agree with that, but at the same time I feel Kingsley and Smith really delivered with the Finale of her arc. Dang it, they made me believe they were in love there. If that is to be River's swan song...they went out with a bang.

Speaking of Pertwee, I got a little hint of him in Smith when he said the line "See you around, Professor River Song." One thing I really, really like about Smith as the Doctor is he channels the other actors - whether deliberately or unintentionally - and really gives the Doctor a sense of "Age".

Which is saying something, since he's no older then I am.
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