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 S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)

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Rate S7E7: The Bells of St. John
Amazing!
13%
 13% [ 4 ]
Good
45%
 45% [ 14 ]
Okay...
23%
 23% [ 7 ]
Bad
10%
 10% [ 3 ]
Awful!
9%
 9% [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 31
 

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mysterylad
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:56 pm

Ronpur wrote:
Wow, just dawned on me.....the World Wide Web was the new Web of Fear! LOL

Mind

BLOWN!

affraid
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Ronpur
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:05 pm

mysterylad wrote:
Ronpur wrote:
Wow, just dawned on me.....the World Wide Web was the new Web of Fear! LOL

Mind

BLOWN!

affraid

And it really does steal our souls away, lol.
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jaredofmo
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:16 pm

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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:02 pm

I voted good. Not great, but good fun.

Here's what the Two Puppet Doctors think about it:

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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:37 pm

"Now this I like."

Best line EVER! cheers
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The 2nd Doctor Roberts
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:52 pm

I had to give it a "bad." I honestly had no expectations going into the episode and found nothing to get excited about. The title was clever, but it seems a bit wasted, since the sequence with the monks had no bearing on the resolution of the episode. The use of the Great Intelligence is good if it is intended to be the "Big Bad" of the season; otherwise it seems a little lazy to use it as a villain in back-to-back episodes.

As a viewer, I found no reason to care about the Clara "mystery." I've been watching Doctors go gaga over companions for the last eight years, so the Doctor's interest in her doesn't make her extraordinary. We've just done the "mystery girl" thing with River Song, so the mystery itself doesn't make her extraordinary. And while Coleman's performance is fine, the character as written in this episode...not extraordinary.

And she's playing hard to get? I do admit my fandom comes from an era where companions were something Doctors tolerated, not pursued. But even disregarding that, I see no reason for the Doctor to stick around trying to win her over. She doesn't appear to be in danger or be a danger to others. Why doesn't he chalk the mystery up as one of those "timey-wimey" things and light out of there?

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Scary
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:57 pm

Agreed.

This episode triggers many questions about the story-arc, and whilst I usually enjoy the story-arcs (I loved series 6), I'm actually feeling really apathetic to this one in particular; it's too similar to everything we've already seen with the mystery of River, and also just the pure fact that it's Clara that the story-arc is based around and I don't like her.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:03 pm

Evil Monkey Pope wrote:

I'm also confused by the Great Intelligence appearing as Dr. Simeon. I have to watch the Yeti episodes, but I was under the impression that the present GI was supposed to be completely inhuman. Since it's been retconned that the GI was Dr. Simeon's psychic split personality, shouldn't it be speaking with Ian McKellan's Snowman voice? Is GI the voice that told River "Silence will fall" when the TARDIS inexplicably exploded?

Audience Continuity Filter.

Namely, they had the Great Intelligence show up as Doctor Simeon to help the audience (Specifically, newcomers who had never heard of the Great Intelligence prior to The Snowmen and likely missed the "Blink-and-you-miss-it" exposition dump about it being called The Great Intelligence) identify that this was, in fact, the same entity that the Doctor faced in The Snowmen.

Like I said, I quite enjoyed that because it gives we the audience a leg up on the Doctor and everyone else in the show. That way there's not so much head scratching over who is doing what to whom.

As for GI being the mystery voice from Series 5...I'd like that, but I'm beginning to suspect that particular plot thread isn't going to get resolved. It seems to have been pretty much forgotten about, especially in lieu of Series 6's convoluted romp.

That's not Moffat hate, by the way. I'm just not fond of writers deliberately leaving things vague for the Audience. Bad memories of other shows that pulled that same stunt and ended up being less then they ever could have been (LOST, Battlestar Galactica, Star Trek: Enterprise's Temporal Cold War...)
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:35 pm

It was just okay for me. The constricted time is the biggest issue. Everything is rushed and no time to develop the story. I really didn't see much going and was having deja vu from previous episodes. I don't care about the so-called mystery that is Clara. Just give us a companion and adventures that they and the Doctor go on. It worked for Classic Who.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:01 am

well, the only thing that really gives me hope that it will be resolved, ie river in the tardis and the voice, is that the tardis appearing at the end of matts first episode, with young ameilia smiling and looking up was readdressed and done very powerfully imo. so never say never. lol
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:36 pm

It was good fun. Not a 10/10, but it got the job done this week. The Great Intelligence will be a continuing villian, Clara is the new companion, the Doctor is trying to figure out who Clara is. Fairly straightforward. At least they're not trying to cram Zygons vs Daleks each anniversary week into an even bigger battle, but we're getting a new take on an old and rather inexplinable villian. At least now I feel that whole "Snowmen" episode wasn't for nothing.

I'd secretly still like to see a Yeti, but am afraid that it just wouldn't "work" in the current series. They'd be too cute or not stand up well to current production values.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:39 pm

So why did the Doctor worry about this...



...when he did this?

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Rust
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:13 pm

...because the Library had a sophisticated, custom built "Matrix" in order to house the consciousness of a little girl dying of a terminal disease that the Doctor knew River would be located at at the right time in order to upload her.

Nevermind the fact the Library is however many hundreds of years into Humanity's future, however many hundreds of light years away from Sol and the people trapped at The Shard were stuck in "Holding Cells" in the 21st Century with only a one way connection both to and from their former bodies - most of which, as the Director points out, are no longer available to be re-inhabited due to the body's biological death?

I've heard the Library argument for the episode before, but it doesn't really work in this instance. Even assuming the Doctor was able to download them into some kind of adequate "Flash Drive" (Which would have been a feat, considering how many the Shard was appearently housing), the TARDIS is pretty hinky when it comes to time travel. There's no guarantees the Doctor could hit the right set of spacial coordinates to get back to the Library on the day the Vashta Narada had their "Cease Fire". (To say nothing of crossing his own Time Stream, of which he is effectively incapable of doing. Multiple versions of the TARDIS cannot occupy the same spacial coordinates, The Two Doctors seemingly withstanding)

Considering any uninhabited body is on a "Timer" in regards to its functionality (Think about it - all biological processes cease. Clara's blood would start coagulating. Frankly, she's lucky she wasn't instantly killed by a blood clot the moment she woke back up at the Cafe. To say nothing of Oxygen Starvation to the Brain - as little as Ten Minutes can result in permanent brain damage), the Doctor - ironically - did not have the time to save any but the most recently taken.

Besides, speaking for myself, if I found myself in that kind of situation, I'd opt to have the plug pulled too. That's not living - that's merely existing.


At least the Doctor didn't darn them to an eternity of being faces in a patch of concrete.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:07 am

Plus (and this is just for the Library question), the people knew who they were. They were not asking "where am I? Who am I? What am I doing here?" like in The Bells of St. John (even in the Idiots Lantern it looked like the people in the TV sets still retained what they knew, and where they were).

Honestly, If I was offered a chance to live in the Library Matrix forever, given a false reality custom fit to make me happy (the job of Dr. Moon), I would take it.
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Wes Crayon
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:23 am

Except it wouldn't actually be YOU existing in the Library Matrix -- it'd be a copy of you. You'd be dead.

Honestly, I really hate stuff like this (you should see how I went off on Dollhouse) because it displays such a fundamental lack of understanding of how uploading works even though this stuff should be common knowledge. When you upload a file, you're not transporting the original file: you're copying the data from one location to another. When you move a file, you're not moving the original file: you're copying the data to a new location and then deleting the original information. And that's when everything's digital to begin with, so it's even more obvious that the original biological information isn't going to be what gets preserved when the contents of a human brain are uploaded to a digital server. (And it's even more problematic when you start thinking about "souls," because those are incorporeal, spiritual entities and would more properly be addressed by magic than technology.)

Granted, I can buy the idea of a human mind being duplicated in digital format and allowed to live in a digital world, so I'm less hostile towards the Library episodes (though there IS a difference between preserving someone's memories and saving someone's life). But the idea of uploading human souls to the Internet, and of the contents of a mind being partially or wholly uploaded in a way that somehow removes the information from the brain (yet doesn't appear to damage it in any notable way) is just dumb and pointless. If the Intelligence needed to consume actual, physical human minds (and let's say that that's what was happening, though it doesn't explain how the process could be reversed), what was the point of uploading copies to the Internet? And if the Intelligence was somehow feeding off of the uploaded copies, what was the point of deleting the original minds (however that worked)? I usually find Moffat's episodes to be clever even when they're bad, but this whole premise was just poorly thought out from the start.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:02 am

Wes Crayon wrote:
Except it wouldn't actually be YOU existing in the Library Matrix -- it'd be a copy of you. You'd be dead.

Honestly, I really hate stuff like this (you should see how I went off on Dollhouse) because it displays such a fundamental lack of understanding of how uploading works even though this stuff should be common knowledge. When you upload a file, you're not transporting the original file: you're copying the data from one location to another. When you move a file, you're not moving the original file: you're copying the data to a new location and then deleting the original information. And that's when everything's digital to begin with, so it's even more obvious that the original biological information isn't going to be what gets preserved when the contents of a human brain are uploaded to a digital server. (And it's even more problematic when you start thinking about "souls," because those are incorporeal, spiritual entities and would more properly be addressed by magic than technology.)

Granted, I can buy the idea of a human mind being duplicated in digital format and allowed to live in a digital world, so I'm less hostile towards the Library episodes (though there IS a difference between preserving someone's memories and saving someone's life). But the idea of uploading human souls to the Internet, and of the contents of a mind being partially or wholly uploaded in a way that somehow removes the information from the brain (yet doesn't appear to damage it in any notable way) is just dumb and pointless. If the Intelligence needed to consume actual, physical human minds (and let's say that that's what was happening, though it doesn't explain how the process could be reversed), what was the point of uploading copies to the Internet? And if the Intelligence was somehow feeding off of the uploaded copies, what was the point of deleting the original minds (however that worked)? I usually find Moffat's episodes to be clever even when they're bad, but this whole premise was just poorly thought out from the start.

What are your thoughts on the Quickenings in Highlander?
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:35 pm

Highlander was pretty much dealing with magic -- in that life forces were being transferred by lightning strikes and whatnot -- so no problems there. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:49 pm

My no-prize answer to this plot hole is that there's a built in two-way automatic transcription barrier. When Spoonheads download a person's mind it's converted into a digital copy. When the digital copy is uploaded back into a human body it's converted into an organic-compatible copy. This automatic transciption ibarrier was needed since the GI was putting different personalities into his staff's bodies.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:00 am

Wes Crayon wrote:
... I really hate stuff like this (you should see how I went off on Dollhouse) because it displays such a fundamental lack of understanding of how uploading works ...

Thank you!

This was one of many areas that ST:Voyager lost me. It was some time travel type story where somebody had "stolen" the OS from the ship or some dumb crap and they had to steal it back. The entire urgency of the situation was based on the idea that having accessed and copied the software had caused it to cease existing in the original computer. It irritated the crap out of me.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future%27s_End


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Wes Crayon
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:37 am

Evil Monkey Pope wrote:
My no-prize answer to this plot hole is that there's a built in two-way automatic transcription barrier. When Spoonheads download a person's mind it's converted into a digital copy. When the digital copy is uploaded back into a human body it's converted into an organic-compatible copy. This automatic transciption ibarrier was needed since the GI was putting different personalities into his staff's bodies.
Yeeah, that doesn't work. It's not the conversion that's the problem -- I'll buy that. (At least if we're talking about the mind, or the information contained in the human brain. "Souls," not so much.) It's the deleting of the original file (in this case, the human being's mind) that's the problem. How does that work, and what's the point of doing it?
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:14 am

Maybe the Spoonheads only downloaded the personality & memory portions of the mind as they wouldn't have a use or storage space for bodily functions in their cloud network. The autonomic processes remained uncopied in the original bodies so the people would still be alive in comas rather than dying instantly.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:44 am

Evil Monkey Pope wrote:
Maybe the Spoonheads only downloaded the personality & memory portions of the mind as they wouldn't have a use or storage space for bodily functions in their cloud network. The autonomic processes remained uncopied in the original bodies so the people would still be alive in comas rather than dying instantly.

Doesn't work because the Director flat out tells the Doctor that the majority of people have no body left to go back to. Whatever the Spoonheads do, it's akin to putting a magnet on the side of a harddrive.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:57 am

Rust wrote:
Evil Monkey Pope wrote:
Maybe the Spoonheads only downloaded the personality & memory portions of the mind as they wouldn't have a use or storage space for bodily functions in their cloud network. The autonomic processes remained uncopied in the original bodies so the people would still be alive in comas rather than dying instantly.

Doesn't work because the Director flat out tells the Doctor that the majority of people have no body left to go back to. Whatever the Spoonheads do, it's akin to putting a magnet on the side of a harddrive.

But why no bodies left? Did they die or were the bodies destroyed by the spooners to cover their tracks? Having hundreds of people falling into comas might get UNITs attention. If they were simply disposed of, then the personality could in fact be restored to any body still in a coma.

I try not to explain science in this show, most of the time, and just go with it. It isn't like Christopher Bidmead is writing.
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:26 am

The dialogue of the episode is very clear.

In one of the first scenes in The Shard, the Director's chief underling is worried that they're grabbing too many people at once and are going to attract attention. Suggesting that they've been snatching people at a fairly sedate rate up until recently, where the numbers have increased to the point they would be noticed.

There are over 7 billion people all over the world, and they are preying on anyone with a Wireless Connection. The Average Crude Death Rate of the world (As per CIA World Factbook) is 8 out of every 1000 people per year. That means (And forgive me, math is not my strong suit) that out of a global population of 7 billion, that comes out to 560,000 people dying a year.

Even if the Shard was getting aggressive and risking attention, that's a LOT of people that can be "buried" in the background noise of simple statistical death. If they weren't pulling out of a single area, it would be very hard for anyone to notice a pattern unless they realized there was a problem to begin with.


As for why no bodies - like I said, whatever the Spoonheads do, it obviously leaves the body a mere shell and no longer functioning properly. Thus in a frighteningly short amount of time (10 Minutes no oxygen to the Brain is enough for permanent brain damage), especially if alone, you aren't going to be able to "salvage" the bodies even if they are only in a coma. If all processes cease, the ability to "salvage" a body becomes increasingly shorter a time table.

Simply put, there was no place left for the all but the Shard's most recent victims to go. Some of them had been in their for days if not weeks - their bodies likely already destroyed via cremation or embalming. Or undiscovered but uninhabitable due to brain damage/blood coagulation.

There was no way to save any but the most recently "uploaded".
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PostSubject: Re: S7E7: The Bells of St. John (SPOILERS)   Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:17 pm

Gahhh, you guys still aren't comprehending how downloading and uploading work. These things involve copying information -- not moving it -- such that the deleting of the information (whether in the human brain or from the Shard hard drives) would require an extra step. And at least given what we were told in the episode, there doesn't seem to be any reason for that extra step. It was stupid and poorly thought out and I'm kinda shocked you guys aren't jumping all over it. Razz
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