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Calixar
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PostSubject: Twilight   Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:55 pm

Like my zombie thread, this is a gripe about stupid altering of the mythology of vampires.

The very idea of a vampire that wants to be loved and can love and all that just ticks me off. And the werewolves can transform at will? That's asinine and completely flies in the face of the tragedy of the werewolf curse.

There are these established werewolf and vampire societies. I can accept it to an extent with vampires... but vampire families? That brings me back to the vampire being in love, and in the latest film, getting a woman pregnant.

Question: Why do vampires have such white skin?
Hint: It's the same reason he would not be able to get a woman pregnant.
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Cruel Angel
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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:27 pm

Like I kept trying to tell all the Twi-Mom teachers at the district where I worked (I swear they outnumbered their Twi-Hard students)... the Twilight books and movies are not about vampires. They are not about horror. They are about a sappy (and from what people that have read it that are not uber fans have told me- poorly written) high school love triangle.

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Evil Monkey Pope
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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:47 pm

I actually have less a problem with these than the zombie revisions.
I don't like vampires who are EVIL just because they're vampires. A vampire should carry over the personality traits they had when they were alive. Vampires who still want human relationships but are thwarted by their inhuman nature can have great pathos. It's like the early Babylonian vampires who were cursed to feed on their loved ones against their better nature.
Much of the popular werewolf lore was invented by Curt Sidomak for The Wolf Man. Most of the folkloric werewolves & people who were executed under the delusion of being werewolves voluntarily transformed. They often chose to transform whenever they wanted through rituals. Those who are born werewolves could have even more control of their metamorphosis than humans who become werewolves.
Sparkling, on the other hand, is utter bollocks. In part 2, one of the stupidest plotpoints is Edward's desire to have the other vamps kill him by walking around in daylight to expose vampires to the world. Nobody would think that he's a vampire because vampires aren't associated with sparkling in daylight. They'd just think he's wearing too much body glitter. It's still a dick move for Ed to instigate the extermination of his kind over the blandest girl ever.
So these aren't necessarily new or ruinous additions to these monsters' mythos. It's just a shame that Stephanie Myer is an awful author.
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mysterylad
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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:23 am

This thread is akin to your zombie thread? My response is akin to my response there. Like the zombie, there is no "true" iteration of the werewolf (or of lycanthropes in general) or the vampire. At least the zombie has a folklore/cultural metaphor evolution which can be traced, but these creatures appeared in virtually every world mythology dating back to before written language, and appear in wildly differing forms with wildly varying characteristics and "rules." There is no single body of myth for Twilight to violate with its sparkling teen idol vampires and werewolf superheroes.

If you're going to dislike Twilight, dislike because it's artless, vapid nonsense with no literary significance. Don't try to play a "true mythology" card which doesn't exist.
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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:43 pm

As far as mythology goes, I read Bram Stoker's Dracula, and to me, that was a piece of art. Every other vampire story is sub-par (in my opinion).

Werewolves, eh, open to interpretation, but not what Twilight has done to them (I think the Underworld series did a better job with Werewolves).

As far as my thoughts on Twilight, I think this about sums it up:

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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:25 pm

Calixar wrote:
The very idea of a vampire that wants to be loved and can love and all that just ticks me off.

One of my favorite vampires is Barnabas Collins, a reluctant vampire so cursed by a love-scorned witch in the 1790's. When he is awakened, he meets a woman who resembles his lost love from the past and will stop at nothing to have her. Watch Dark Shadows, either the original or the 1990's revival and see that sometimes it can work.

Just for the record, I think Twilight is rubbish. Vampires don't "sparkle" or any of that other nonsense. But I do believe that a vampire can still hold on to their "humanity" and love.

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Cruel Angel
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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:20 pm

SeaDevil wrote:
But I do believe that a vampire can still hold on to their "humanity" and love.



That's always been my take on it. I have never felt that it turns you evil by default. How you deal with your new existence depends on your same ol' morals and personality.
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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:56 am

The thing that irritates me about Twilight isn't the take on the various mythologies, it's that so many people love it and want to *be* Bella without realizing that the story itself is absolutely terrible. It's about Falling in Love with a Stalker and mistreating others horribly in the mission to be with the stalker.

It's a terrible guide to relationships and glorifies the unhealthy relationship.

And that's even ignoring all the absolutely batjive loco stuff that happens elsewhere in the series. Like how Bella gives birth to the Vampire Messiah, has to literally have her stomach ripped open, and the Werewolf concocts a case of Pedophilia in regards to said Vampire Messiah (All in the attempt to give that character a "happy" ending).


Seriously, the author to Twilight needs to professional help. She's dealing with a lot of unhealthy concepts about life and love. Similarly, George R.R. Martin also seems to need help, if his writing is any indication.
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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:08 am

Rust wrote:
The thing that irritates me about Twilight isn't the take on the various mythologies, it's that so many people love it and want to *be* Bella without realizing that the story itself is absolutely terrible. It's about Falling in Love with a Stalker and mistreating others horribly in the mission to be with the stalker.

It's a terrible guide to relationships and glorifies the unhealthy relationship.


Exactly the comments I heard from the non Twi Mom teachers about the appropriateness of the material for young girls in school that are entering the dating and relationship world.



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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:53 pm

Rust wrote:
The thing that irritates me about Twilight isn't the take on the various mythologies, it's that so many people love it and want to *be* Bella without realizing that the story itself is absolutely terrible. It's about Falling in Love with a Stalker and mistreating others horribly in the mission to be with the stalker.

It's a terrible guide to relationships and glorifies the unhealthy relationship.

And that's even ignoring all the absolutely batjive loco stuff that happens elsewhere in the series. Like how Bella gives birth to the Vampire Messiah, has to literally have her stomach ripped open, and the Werewolf concocts a case of Pedophilia in regards to said Vampire Messiah (All in the attempt to give that character a "happy" ending).


Seriously, the author to Twilight needs to professional help. She's dealing with a lot of unhealthy concepts about life and love. Similarly, George R.R. Martin also seems to need help, if his writing is any indication.

Yeah, Jacob is the only character I like and he gets hosed over and over again by that strumpet then gets a stupid "consolation prize" for a reward at the end. He clearly loves her and would die for her and she needn't give up anything to be with him - much less die!. It's rubbish. She's stupid.

Ok, now that's my "unmanly thing." Another one and I'll have to give up my Miller Lite.

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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:10 pm

SeaDevil wrote:


Yeah, Jacob is the only character I like and he gets hosed over and over again by that strumpet then gets a stupid "consolation prize" for a reward at the end. He clearly loves her and would die for her and she needn't give up anything to be with him - much less die!. It's rubbish. She's stupid.


Sounds like yet another stunning example of how movie writers show that it is better to shaft the nice guy and have the girl pick the less deserving one. But no, we can't have the girl look bad for doing so... so unlike real life the nice guy somehow ends up with someone else and that makes everything ok.

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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:32 pm

Cruel Angel wrote:

Sounds like yet another stunning example of how movie writers show that it is better to shaft the nice guy and have the girl pick the less deserving one. But no, we can't have the girl look bad for doing so... so unlike real life the nice guy somehow ends up with someone else and that makes everything ok.


A movie that pulled that stunt and really managed to tick me off doing it was P.S. I Love You. Guy had been with this gal since she lost her Husband, was emotional support, did nothing wrong by her...but we'll have her shack up with former best friend of late Husband living in another country instead because Exotic Men are dreamy.

...

What? Yeah I watch Romance Movies. Big whoop. Wanna fight about it?

Coincidentally, I did get dragged into seeing Twilight when it first came out in theaters (Had to believe I had yet to even begin dating my future wife at that point). Here's my review:

Quote :

If any of you want to go see Twilight; Here's a Word of Advice...

...Don't.

So I got drug along to the film (read: I did it to be nice) by my Ex (With whom I'm still good friends with).

Oh dear me. This movie is a trainwreck, and both of us agreed on that point. It was kinda entertaining really, watching her be so riled up by a film. Though now I understand why I saw some people LEAVING the theater by mid-movie.

Speaking as someone who's been exposed peripherally to the franchise as darn near every one of my female friends has read the series, I went in a little more knowledgeable then most, but the only thing that slight insight gave me was understanding that this one group of characters were supposed to be Werewolves.


As for the movie itself, it's laughable. MST3K worthy. The story is about as hackneyed as you can get, but there's so many gapping plot points that the movie felt like a jumble of edits and cuts - but they cut out the most important parts of the movie. Don't expect to get anything but a passing explaination of the villain of the piece, and expect a lot of hanging plot points which are presumably for any sequel movie but end up turning the film into a bundle of loose ends that get no resolution.

But even the worst story can be salvaged by good performances. *snicker* Oh wow. It was almost entertaining how bad the acting was, we're talking Little Kid Anakin from Episode 1 was a better actor acting here. The main two characters, whats-her-face and vampire boy? Instead of coming across as in love, or even as mildly enjoying each other's company, they both came across as EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE, through the whole film. A few of the secondary actors came across as actually competent, but that's a handful of characters who barely get any screen time compared to a bunch of main characters who are so stiff they look like logs. Dialogue comes across like that of a video game like Oblivion - everyone stands ramrod straight, never breaks eye contact, and doesn't move their hands from their sides.


There's not even a worthwhile Vampire fight scene. All the special effects for the film seem to go towards the Vampire Baseball Game.



Oh God the movie HURT. My only consolation is that my friend also thought the movie was crap (As well as the people who walked out, mid-movie), so I didn't suffer alone.
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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:19 pm

You are lucky your friend thought the movie was crap. My girlfriend still loves them......lucky for me, she goes to see them with her girls. But I fear the dvd release every time!
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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:53 am

Get her to watch them with the Rifftrax on.
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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:10 am

mysterylad wrote:

If you're going to dislike Twilight, dislike because it's artless, vapid nonsense with no literary significance.

Don't mind if I DO!!!! Anyways, I got dragged to the last Twilight by my ex. It was my own fault tho. I said that if she would watch that year's SAW film with me, I would go see Twilight with her. Never thought the would make it through the whole thing.

I understand that in this new movie, the girl gets pregnant with the vampire's child. In my mind, I keep hoping they will show her give birth to a horrible mutant creature, a la Cronenberg's The Fly. Too much to hope for, I know.

Mostly I try to ignore this phenomenon, even tho several women at my work enjoy it. I just keep my head down and don't say anything. If they enjoy it, fine. Just don't tell me it's horror, or try to get me to like it. Once they ask me why I haven't read the books, then the floodgates open. lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:04 pm

Well, of course her baby will be Blade.
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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:17 pm

Rust wrote:
Cruel Angel wrote:

Sounds like yet another stunning example of how movie writers show that it is better to shaft the nice guy and have the girl pick the less deserving one. But no, we can't have the girl look bad for doing so... so unlike real life the nice guy somehow ends up with someone else and that makes everything ok.


A movie that pulled that stunt and really managed to tick me off doing it was P.S. I Love You. Guy had been with this gal since she lost her Husband, was emotional support, did nothing wrong by her...but we'll have her shack up with former best friend of late Husband living in another country instead because Exotic Men are dreamy.

What? Yeah I watch Romance Movies. Big whoop. Wanna fight about it?


That's why I can't do romance and romantic comedies... they pull stuff like that way too often.

However, I have no problems with them in anime. I actually tend to favor the romantic comedies (magical girlfriend, love triangles, etc). My friend says I have a 'home girl complex', because almost without fail I will cheer for the girl in the triangle that has been around and had feelings for the guy the longest (and yes, with that criteria they tend to be the ones that are the friends that the guy just doesn't see as dateable).


Funny thing happened last night... I go over to my best friend's restaurant regularly and we watch videos on my laptop after closing. We've been watching Parker Lewis Can't Lose for the past couple of weeks, but this time I also brought my Buffy season 3 dvds so I could get a couple more done for myself before our Parker time started. His niece (7th grader) and nephew (4th grader) always check out what we watch (they are seriously hooked on Parker Lewis now, and Elizabeth is demanding more Star Trek TNG ). Normally it takes several viewings for her to get into a show... but she saw the case for Buffy and went "Oh, vampires! You've never brought these before!" and immediately folds it out and starts looking at the characters and going through the ep guide.

She knows Twilight of course, but after seeing just one Buffy episode last night, she wants me to bring season 1 so she can start watching it. There might be hope for some of these Twilight kiddos after all Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:52 pm

Evil Monkey Pope wrote:
Get her to watch them with the Rifftrax on.

I've watched some of that version...it makes it nearly watchable! "Seriously, I don't know what emotion you're going for, 'cause you always just look nauseous"
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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:26 pm

Funny, one would think a Rifftrax version of Twilight would involve them just shouting "DULL SURPRISE!" for most of the movie.

Seriously. I've seen puppets emote better then the actors in that movie.
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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:36 pm

I just commented to my sister and niece how astoudning it was that two guys, one is a buff "hottie" would go for the most pasty anoreixc girl in all of the northwest. "Somebody give her a dang sandwich!"

They both laughed and my niece said I was her favorite uncle. Laughing

My sister and my niece are both slightly bigger girls and they were just happy a man was calling out the silliness of them picking someone that obviously hadnt eaten a decent meal or gotten any sun in like 6 months.
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Cruel Angel
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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:06 pm

Whoosier Whovian wrote:


My sister and my niece are both slightly bigger girls and they were just happy a man was calling out the silliness of them picking someone that obviously hadnt eaten a decent meal or gotten any sun in like 6 months.

I take it further... why would these hot immortal guys with model looks, hot bods, and deep emotional sensitivity want anything romantic to do at all with a plain looking, awkward and insecure high school girl?

They wouldn't.

But that's why this premise hooks so many Twi Hard teens and Twi Moms... they live out the fantasy through Bella that they CAN attract guys like this.

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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:13 pm

Here's an even better question:

You're a immortal in a strikingly good looking body and heighten awareness to emotions.

Why on God's Green Earth would you voluntarily keeping going back to HIGH SCHOOL?

Seriously, there are young looking adults out there. There's no rhyme or reason to keep reinserting yourself back into High School over and over again. Especially since if they go back as Freshmen until they graduate...they haven't changed. Furthermore, they keep learning the same stuff over and over again! I love the 1986 Transformers movie and the first Resident Evil films. I adore them and make it a point to watch both once a year and spend most of the time quoting line for line. I've watched them that much.

But to do that every day for the rest of my existence...by the end of the week I'd be ready to rip the TV off the wall.

It totally boggles my mind. If they want to keep interacting with the Human World, that's fine - there are other ways to do it then putting yourself through that hellhole again and again. High School was a nightmare I was glad to be out of. The thought of being immortal and going back for conceivably forever is tantamount to a level of heck.

Especially since, by all appearances, by the fourth novel the author drops that plot point entirely so Bella and Edward can get married! What are they going to do? Keep going to High School together for an eternity? GAH!

Compared to Twilight, Dracula 2000 is a masterpiece of Vampiric Storytelling.
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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:48 pm

"We are so much more complicated than our names."
"I was named after the Peanuts character!"
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PostSubject: Re: Twilight   Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:29 pm

Evil Monkey Pope wrote:
"We are so much more complicated than our names."
"I was named after the Peanuts character!"

"Awkward Small-talk: The Motion Picture!"
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