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 S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War

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memnoch
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:08 am

Mattylover11 wrote:
rdks wrote:
Spoilers for the episode

Spoiler:
 


Funniest thing I heard all day. Laughing
Didn't she say (just in case btw):
Spoiler:
 

I'm not sure, I'd have to go back and check for the exact wording
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memnoch
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:14 am

Scarywood wrote:
I think I agree with this. Was hoping to see more of them, and there was still no mention that they were the "real" Cybermen.

I don't really think they can be. Remember when Eccleston saw the Cyberman head in the museum and called it an old foe? It was the old style Cybermen, you know, the ones whose breathing units were vulnerable to gold (or something along those lines).
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:25 am

memnoch wrote:
Scarywood wrote:
I think I agree with this. Was hoping to see more of them, and there was still no mention that they were the "real" Cybermen.

I don't really think they can be. Remember when Eccleston saw the Cyberman head in the museum and called it an old foe? It was the old style Cybermen, you know, the ones whose breathing units were vulnerable to gold (or something along those lines).

Yeah, but the Cybies in this episode no longer have the 'C' Cybus Industries logo on the chest plate, meaning they aren't the Cybermen that John Lumic created.
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terrasolo
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:52 am

memnoch wrote:
Scarywood wrote:
I think I agree with this. Was hoping to see more of them, and there was still no mention that they were the "real" Cybermen.

I don't really think they can be. Remember when Eccleston saw the Cyberman head in the museum and called it an old foe? It was the old style Cybermen, you know, the ones whose breathing units were vulnerable to gold (or something along those lines).

Yeah but remember even by Eccleston's standards that was an old Cyber head. It was from the 4th Doctor's era. So when he saw it he got nostalgic.

I think the answer lies best in "Rise of the Cybermen" When the Doctor sees them he says "It's happening again, I've seen them before" and after Rose asks who they are he says "Cybermen". He doesn't say they look different but it must be them, he just recognizes them. Which could be taken to mean that they look like the current incarnation of the Cybermen in our world.

Even without that, it's like Scary said, I think the removal of the C logo was the production teams way of saying these are our Cybermen. That athe Cyberships and fleet used in both the Pandorica Opens and now. I think Moff has only used our Cybermen, but that is just my opinion.

Personally, if our Mondas Cybermen look the sam as Cybus men then i would be very happy. Just make them more powerful as they should but and it's a perfect design
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:07 am

terrasolo wrote:
He doesn't say they look different but it must be them, he just recognizes them.
He's never said they look different, despite them looking different almost every time he's met them. That's always bugged me a little for some reason. We've never gotten an explanation for any of their "upgrades".

terrasolo wrote:
Personally, if our Mondas Cybermen look the sam as Cybus men then i would be very happy. Just make them more powerful as they should but and it's a perfect design
They should look the same. Everything else in that universe did. Cars, people, buildings, everything.
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:12 am

I actually had this theory that made the Cybusmen be actual Cybermen to me.

We know that the planet Mondas was supposed to be a 10th Planet in our solar system, and we know that the Al-Earth (Pete's Wolrd) evolved very much like both our world and the Mondas in that it looks like Earth and they had developed Cybermen.

We also know, from "The Tenth Planet" that Mondas looked just like Earth, after all they said it was our twin planet, only the globe was flipped upside down.

So now, my theory is this, Mondas was just another alternate Earth for another alternate dimension, just like Pete's world. Only somehow the entire planet shifted out of it's universe and into ours and for a short time because our twin planet. Cybermen were then born in our world as we knew them.

We always know they were like us before the evolved and that their planet was a twin, but with if it was more than they were like us and actually that they were exactly like us, like Pete's world. Only they named their planet Mondas.

I thought of this a while ago and it really worked for me, so hopefully they never contradict it in the new series as i thinks it's quite a fun idea.
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Rust
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:20 pm

Pete's World is just a reality where The Invasion actually worked as planned. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:34 pm

terrasolo wrote:
I actually had this theory that made the Cybusmen be actual Cybermen to me.

We know that the planet Mondas was supposed to be a 10th Planet in our solar system, and we know that the Al-Earth (Pete's Wolrd) evolved very much like both our world and the Mondas in that it looks like Earth and they had developed Cybermen.

We also know, from "The Tenth Planet" that Mondas looked just like Earth, after all they said it was our twin planet, only the globe was flipped upside down.

So now, my theory is this, Mondas was just another alternate Earth for another alternate dimension, just like Pete's world. Only somehow the entire planet shifted out of it's universe and into ours and for a short time because our twin planet. Cybermen were then born in our world as we knew them.

We always know they were like us before the evolved and that their planet was a twin, but with if it was more than they were like us and actually that they were exactly like us, like Pete's world. Only they named their planet Mondas.

I thought of this a while ago and it really worked for me, so hopefully they never contradict it in the new series as i thinks it's quite a fun idea.

I remember posting a theory on another forum that Pete's World was in fact, Mondas, and it was pulled into our universe by Rose trying to get back to the Doctor (this was before Doctor 10.5) So, then, the Cybermen had to devolve into the more primitive Cybermen of Tenth Planet due to lack of material on a dying world. It got laughed off, and I never went back to that forum!
But, with the evolution of Cybermen so common in the past, a newer Cybermen from our universe should happen, but, sorry, I can not accept them as being the Cybusmen without the chest logo. Cybusmen to me are nothing more than robot suits with a half dead brain inside. Cybermen should be more organic. We need a new design.
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:27 pm

Cybermen more organic? How so? Outside the clear plastic lower jaw from Earthshock, the Cybermen have always been shown to be almost fully robotic save their brains.
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:01 pm

Tenth Planet, they had human hands and you could occasionally see an eye. Wink

Other than that, they always looked like there was a human inside there. The way they moved was more organic, not the marching robots we have today.
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:13 pm

rdks wrote:
Tenth Planet, they had human hands and you could occasionally see an eye. Wink

Other than that, they always looked like there was a human inside there. The way they moved was more organic, not the marching robots we have today.

Exactly! In Attack of the Cybermen, you saw partially transformed Cybermen rejects, with limbs replaced. The original idea was to augment the human body, not just put the brain in a robot.
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:09 pm

Ronpur wrote:
rdks wrote:
Tenth Planet, they had human hands and you could occasionally see an eye. Wink

Other than that, they always looked like there was a human inside there. The way they moved was more organic, not the marching robots we have today.

Exactly! In Attack of the Cybermen, you saw partially transformed Cybermen rejects, with limbs replaced. The original idea was to augment the human body, not just put the brain in a robot.

I don't know if this will help or not for i have yet to see the classic who. If you watch torchwood they said in the episode "cyberwoman" that at the end of the war(i use that word lightly) that cyberman had with the daleks after coming through the void, the cyberman had begun converting entire bodies instead of just the brain.
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:18 pm

Ronpur wrote:
but, sorry, I can not accept them as being the Cybusmen without the chest logo. Cybusmen to me are nothing more than robot suits with a half dead brain inside. Cybermen should be more organic. We need a new design.


Ah but see that's the thing, the Cybusmen are brains in jars, which I am not a fan of as well. I am a fan of their design, they LOOK fantastic, but the insides need to be as the Cybermen have always bee. So my theory of how the two versions came to be was just saying that they both essentially started in alternate universes. Even if the Mondas ones are truely from our world, like I said, I don't mind if they look like the Cybusmen because the look is brilliant. But I do agree that I want them to be more than brains in jars. they need to have a scee where a helmet faceplate is blown off or removed and we see a cybernized human face, or a limb, etc. That is the one thing I always felt RTD got wrong.

Rocco wrote:
I don't know if this will help or not for i have yet to see the classic who. If you watch torchwood they said in the episode "cyberwoman" that at the end of the war(i use that word lightly) that cyberman had with the daleks after coming through the void, the cyberman had begun converting entire bodies instead of just the brain.

Good point, I had forgotten about that. As as we saw with Lisa, he body was indeed cyber converted. Good catch.

Either way, because they aren't saying one way or the other, the Cybermen from Pandorica and AGMGTW are Mondas Cybermen to me, chest logo or not. They had Cyberships and were way more powerful. So they didn't say it they were or not and they didn't say if they had cybernetic limbs or not, doesn't stop my imagination from believing it. I'm not willing to sacrifice such a good design just to show us they are Mondas Cybermen. After all, look what happened when they messed with the Daleks.
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:30 pm

Maybe all the Cyberman in the Universe just upgraded to that design.
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:47 pm

I would love to see these Cybusmen in their big fancy starship find a dying group of Eathshock Cybermen, stranded on a planet, and watch the two merge into a new faction of Cybermen, because, really, I want a new design, so I can get more Cybermen figures. That is really my main reason for rejecting the current design as the Mondasians!!

The Torchwood Cyberwoman was a quick conversion done during the height of battle and not hat would really be inside the "suit". While there were organic parts inside the suit, it seemed to be nothing more that nerves from the brain to the body.

If we don't get a redesign during the Moffat era, I am sure we will someday, it is only natural. Cybermen evolve.
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:18 am

Indeed, I'm sure the Cybermen will change looks again in the fullness of time. I just wonder if the weakness to Gold will ever come back into play?
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:47 am

Did any one catch this one, The Tardis use to have a hum when William Hartnell was the Doctor. You could hear the sound effect even outside of it.

When the Sulurian went into her Parlor Room you could hear the old Hum it sounded very cool. If you have the episode forward to that scene. To my knowledge they have not used this effect since the 1960s

Is a Sontaran Nurse Covered under Obama Care?????????????
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:01 am

Rust wrote:
I just wonder if the weakness to Gold will ever come back into play?
I hope not. I don't want to see them get killed with a gold coin & slingshot again!

Back in the 80's I thought the idea of fine particles of gold getting into the chest units and messing up their systems was clever, but in later years it started to get ridiculous (ie Silver Nemesis).

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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:06 am

Given the Pete's World Cybermen had no such weaknesses, it would be kind of neat if the whole reason for the switch in look was the Mondas Cybers locating a few Pete's World survivors and incorporating their strengths into their own bodies.

As for the new Cybermen not moving organically enough, I will say that they move the same way the Cybermen in Tomb and Invasion moved. I always got bothered by the Earthshock Cybers movements. They seemed *too* organic and natural for me.

Regardless, I've always been a fan of the Cybermen and look forward to the Doctor continuing to encounter them.
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:43 pm

Anyone notice on Demons run the hallways around the main control room were from the Doctors wife and were tardis corridors, same shapes on the walls.


It would have been funny if as the clerics left, they played black eyed peas "i got a feeling"
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:23 pm

rmlextreme wrote:
Anyone notice on Demons run the hallways around the main control room were from the Doctors wife and were tardis corridors, same shapes on the walls.


It would have been funny if as the clerics left, they played black eyed peas "i got a feeling"

yeah i did. Laughing Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:35 pm

This episode seemed to have all those "indulgent" bits that usually go into a series finale. All the monsters, the Spitfires in space, the pirates made a cameo, just everything that Moffat could cram into an episode.

Does this mean that in the fall we'll get a real searies finale that is a bit more toned down and less indulgent? We won't have to see all the season's monsters and all the companions from the past 5 years jumbled into one huge mess? Tennant really seemed to get two goodbyes with the way RTD just kept on bringing the companions back. The casual fans may love this stuff, but it doesn't seem to make much sense in terms of plot. I''m hoping for a far less grand ending this fall concentrating on the Doctor and the current ordeals for Amy and Rory. And just that. Don't really need to see a bunch of Daleks, Silence, the odd TARDIS from the Lodger, Nixon, Weeping Angles, Flesh people, the Master, Churchill, Liz10, and everyone else that could be scrounged up. Okay, Moffat can have the Silence and TARDIS if that wraps up their storylines.

Is that asking for too much?
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PostSubject: Re: S6E7: A Good Man Goes To War   Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:50 pm

No, Squishy, it isn't.

I agree. It is important to please the casual fans, but what about the die hard fans who have been watching for years? Are they just ignored? Are they denied pleasure from Doctor Who nowadays? Does Moffat seriously want to push us away from Who to make way for the people who would never give Who a serious thought?
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