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 RTD .... mild rant

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Nuggan
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PostSubject: RTD .... mild rant   Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:43 am

Okay...so, right.

We finished the first series of Torchwood tonight.

I have decided that Daves had a really bad childhood.

The man finds it absolutely necessary to inflict pain and misery on his characters.

It flew under my radar screen for the most part with Doctor Who because Tennant's acting was so powerful. But as I have mentioned elsewhere in the forum it almost got to be too much.

It became clearer in Torchwood. I wasn't as attached to the characters. Not only were most of them messed up in general, they got even MORE messed up by having horrible things happen to them.

I'm not saying he's horrible. He did a lot of good stuff. But on the whole, more pain and misery than was necessary.

I don't think I'd continue TW if it didn't have a connection to The Doctor.

I don't mean to dredge up an old topic, so if I have...I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.

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PostSubject: Re: RTD .... mild rant   Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:02 am

Okay, out of curiosity, why does someone have to have a bad childhood just because there is pain inflicted upon their characters often? Have we forgotten that there is beauty in pain and that pain can shape us? Pain is interesting, it is intriguing because not everyone reacts the same way to things.

For me, perhaps I am just insane like this, but I enjoy stories that show characters who have to struggle, who go through great pain (not always physical, mind you) because in the end, they are so much the better for that struggle. They wouldn't be who they are now if they didn't have to battle through those trials.

No person is ever defined by good times. A solider is generally not defined by his time spent off-duty. He is defined by his actions as a soldier, as a follower or a leader. He is defined by the struggles that he faces, whatever those might be.

It's a human-interest issue we're talking about. People enjoy hearing about the struggles of others. It alerts us to the fact that we're not alone in these trials. There are others who have gone through what we have and there will be more who will face them. Yes it's not fun and yes it hurts, but the most valued lessons are always painful.

To love is to know pain. Reject pain and you cannot understand love. Just because bad times fall on someone doesn't mean that the joy is over or that life has ended. It's like with love, people think that only when you're happy that you're in love with someone. That just simply isn't true. Pain is unavoidable. We all get let down, we all have bad things happen to us, but we keep pushing onwards.

In this fallen world you cannot just have the good and ignore the bad. That would be fatal. The wise learn from pain and they learn to see the good that can come from it. Remember how the fourth Doctor spoke of the fact that despite the evil of the Daleks, a lot of good has come from their evil. Planets and systems who had fought before had now joined up to fight a common threat.

Good can come from bad and pain does not last forever.
~
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jfh1970
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PostSubject: Re: RTD .... mild rant   Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:27 am

I really did like TW and I grew to love the characters too. I became turned off though when pretty much the whole team was killed off. After Ianto met his demise, I pretty much decided that enough was enough. It's one thing when you have a character here and there get killed, but when you kill off every one of them pretty much that just lacks creativity to me. As a result of what has been done, I have absolutely no desire to watch the series when it comes back to Starz.
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Nuggan
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PostSubject: Re: RTD .... mild rant   Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:55 am

a1cmustangpilot wrote:
Okay, out of curiosity, why does someone have to have a bad childhood just because there is pain inflicted upon their characters often? Have we forgotten that there is beauty in pain and that pain can shape us? Pain is interesting, it is intriguing because not everyone reacts the same way to things.

For me, perhaps I am just insane like this, but I enjoy stories that show characters who have to struggle, who go through great pain (not always physical, mind you) because in the end, they are so much the better for that struggle. They wouldn't be who they are now if they didn't have to battle through those trials.

No person is ever defined by good times. A solider is generally not defined by his time spent off-duty. He is defined by his actions as a soldier, as a follower or a leader. He is defined by the struggles that he faces, whatever those might be.

It's a human-interest issue we're talking about. People enjoy hearing about the struggles of others. It alerts us to the fact that we're not alone in these trials. There are others who have gone through what we have and there will be more who will face them. Yes it's not fun and yes it hurts, but the most valued lessons are always painful.

To love is to know pain. Reject pain and you cannot understand love. Just because bad times fall on someone doesn't mean that the joy is over or that life has ended. It's like with love, people think that only when you're happy that you're in love with someone. That just simply isn't true. Pain is unavoidable. We all get let down, we all have bad things happen to us, but we keep pushing onwards.

In this fallen world you cannot just have the good and ignore the bad. That would be fatal. The wise learn from pain and they learn to see the good that can come from it. Remember how the fourth Doctor spoke of the fact that despite the evil of the Daleks, a lot of good has come from their evil. Planets and systems who had fought before had now joined up to fight a common threat.

Good can come from bad and pain does not last forever.
~

Well first, I didn't *really* mean that he had a bad childhood. I forgot to add a smiley or something.

I'm not saying having sad episodes where the characters experience pain and loss isn't good. Just, with Daves it's TOO MUCH. If I had a really rotten day and want to unwind with my favorite show, watching them get repeatedly emotionally tortured and bludgeoned doesn't help.

Now, if you want to get into a theological/religious discussion about sin and pain and suffering. Not only am I your gal, but THERE'S where it truly counts in the real world.

I thank Daves for the good job he did. I guess I just prefer Moffatt's style.
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bret_owen99
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PostSubject: Re: RTD .... mild rant   Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:47 pm

doctor who is escapism. it's meant to be fantasy, and fun, and laughs, and thrills. torchwood was meant to be realism. sex, violence, pain, suffering, death(yes, there was too much) all featured. rtd always kind of said that torchwood was doctor who for adults(i kind of agree). the different stories about sleeper agents, little kid drug using aliens, sex addicted aliens, really set the show apart. is it the greatest scifi show ever? no. however, it does provide a more realistic approach to the doctor who universe where no one usually dies, or has sex, or is in pain, or is tortured. all things that usually happen on a daily basis in "real" life. rtd just wanted to create a universe that would "seem" real.

the first episode is the best example of that, where jack says the number one rule is that no one can take any alien tech home. every single torchwood member takes something home. that is real. stealing from the workplace.
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khana
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PostSubject: Re: RTD .... mild rant   Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:19 pm

*chuckles* We relatively recently got Doctor Who, and while I was supposed to wait and watch it with my husband, I got a little anxious in 4th series and started watching ahead >.>

After The Doctor's Daughter, I stopped and waited. I told my husband there was too much that happened, that we should watch it together, because of what was coming. He asked, "Is it good or bad?" I asked, "The answer depends on this: Does the Doctor deserve more pain?"

His eyes went wide, no doubt remembering the times we'd both sat with tears falling from our faces (the ending of Doomsday got us both good), and said, "No." I said, "Then the writers are evil... brilliant, but cruel."

That conversation pretty much covers my opinion on the series... the Doctor has been raked over the coals. Losing his entire species? Having to be the one who destroyed them, for the sake of the universe? And then, just more and more and more... piling on him, wrenching his already beaten and battered soul...

And then, yeah, Torchwood. It's more realistic, in the sense of the type of things you tend to run into, or would be likely to run into in that type of universe, the type of choices that have to be made in hard places (like the end of Children of the Earth. Aiiii, that was brutal!).

But I agree, it's too much. Pain defines us, absolutely, it makes us grow. "That which does not kill you will ultimately make you stronger." But there comes a point when enough pain will kill you, destroy you. I mean, at the end of Children of Earth,
Spoiler:
 

I think RTD is a brilliant writer, but he's got to learn how to do happy endings Razz Joy without sorrow is meaningless, true... but sorrow without joy is despair. Life is about balance, and RTD definitely seems to heavily lean to the excessively destructive side of things.
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Rust
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PostSubject: Re: RTD .... mild rant   Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:16 pm

RTD does "Suffering Heroes" rather well, but I agree. The man needs to loosen up a bit, write some happier tales.

Even Moffat writes fun stories with happy endings some times.
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