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 Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!

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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:33 am

scarywood wrote:
Lets put it this way...
Besides, Eight is awesome. How can people hate THE kindest and most friendliest incarnation of the Doctor?

I must point out "Scherzo". The Eighth Doctor is by far the most friendly, the most kind, the most wonderful incarnation of the Doctor that I have seen and heard. There is a good reason that he's my favourite, and that is his charming, romantic personality. I use "romantic" not for love interests but for the era of romance... artwork, his whole mannerism, way of speaking, etc. He's a romantic. It's so obvious. And when he geeks out, it's so cute.

However... Eight does break hearts. He can be very cold, and to hear him be such is very startling, unnerving, and it's upset me to the point of tears. I can't beging to say how much "Scherzo" upset me, but one needs to have heard the season finale in order to understand "Scherzo".
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:49 am

^o^CORVUS^o^ wrote:
There's got to be a parallel where the Daleks are good, and that's the REAL reason why Davros wanted to destroy all realities: he knew there were good-guy Daleks out there that may come and kick his shriveled booty *lol* Wink

Heh, I think you might be correct there!

If I haven't said this before, I really appreciate your nice comments about my pictures. I know that they're just pictures of toys, but I do enjoy setting the scenes, taking the pictures, and sharing them. I like creating things, especially good things.

~
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:44 am

The BBC novel series was produced by the BBC, was it not? I would count that as, at least, semi-canon.
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:10 am

a1cmustangpilot wrote:
I've noticed in a few DW comms that there is an awful amount of dislike (and possible hate) against the 1996 "Doctor Who" movie. Sometimes it's based purely on the fact that it was made by the US, but a majority of the ones who dislike the movie and reject Eight as canon seem to do so because of the "half-human" remark that both the Doctor and the Master made. Personally, I'm not sure what the big deal is about that remark anyways.

I've heard that people accept Eight as canon as far as the fact that he existed and seven regenerated into him, but everything else, his adventures onscreen and in the audios, are non-canon.

I find that amusing, because if that is possible to do, to reject everything about Eight and Eight himself, then I reject Eleven entirely based on the fact that I just don't like him.



...kidding... Rolling Eyes
~

The Eight Doctor IS canon, no matter what any fan says. If you accept the new series that you accept him. But in the lore of the show's history he is the real eight Doctor.

Are the books or audios canon? That it can be more safely said, is up to the individual fan. Personally I feel the only real canon is the show. 1963-1989, 1996, 2005 to current. Spinoff by the BBC too.

To me, the Big Finish plays are canon. I have never had an instance where the stepped on the shows continuity. And both the Big Finish plays that were made into TV episodes were made so different that both could have easily happened.

The Either Doctor is a brilliant Doctor and if people want to exclude him because he said he was half human or America made the story then I feel sad for their loss. I have loved the TV Movie since I saw it. And I know there are a few issues people always bang on about but they are easily non issues with a little imagination or looking at the facts within the show.

The Eighth Doctor is Canon, so says the BBC, that's good enough for me. Brilliant Doctor.

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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:16 am

a1cmustangpilot wrote:
^o^CORVUS^o^ wrote:
ReverendKain wrote:
Yeah, I don't see how you can reject his canonicity at this point... Dude's face has been onscreen twice with all the other doctors. I can see rejecting the novels, comics, audio, etc, but even then, it's not like Who has a hard and fast law of canon anyway.
^ This.

Fans often find loopholes to dismiss something they dislike, and this is one of those cases. Fortunately, RTD (and Moffat) made sure to show Eight onscreen on several occasions, and thus cement his canonicity.



Which means nothing to anyone who just dismisses it on the grounds that they don't like it. It doesn't matter if it is shown onscreen or not, they get rid of it or insert what they want.

~

People who dismiss something because they "don't like it" really are just showing how childish they can be. If you don't like it stop watching or get over it. Simple as that. At the end of the day what does it do to ruin the show for them?

The biggest complaint that I have heard is the half human thing. It can be easily explained with our imagination, info on screen and even better the old "what does it matter?" I mean really? How in any way does it change anything about the past of the show?
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:43 pm

a1cmustangpilot wrote:

Oh yeah, I don't accept my "good" Daleks as canon, although I keep hoping for a canon "good" Dalek. Very Happy I

The Dalek in "Dalek" and Dalek Caan could qualify as "Good" Daleks.
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:04 pm

Rust wrote:
a1cmustangpilot wrote:

Oh yeah, I don't accept my "good" Daleks as canon, although I keep hoping for a canon "good" Dalek. Very Happy I

The Dalek in "Dalek" and Dalek Caan could qualify as "Good" Daleks.

It was that Dalek that got me thinking about the possibility of other good Daleks, which is how I created both Skaro and Skaro II, which then lead to the creation of all my other good Daleks.

~
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:21 pm

And those in Evil of the Daleks with the human factor
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:45 pm

It will always go on, as I mentioned this (well, primarily The Eye of Harmony from TVM) on a group I took over on Facebook (a lot more responses than that group I created and gave up on, deleting myself, and club membership, all to protect the innocent! Karma. Anyway....), and someone still said he doesn't count 8th as canon, though he knows 8th is.

Heck, someone else said The Cybermen stole the saying from The Borg ("Resistance..."), as she never seen Classic WHO! After I explain it, she said, "so that's a no then". I basically told her off, in a semi-polite way, learning my lesson that people are lurking around.

I don't appreciate attitude from no one, especially when they think they know it all, and as usual, clueless!

Rick Nelson sang it best, "you can't please everyone, so ya, got to please yourself".
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:41 am

So does anybody here on these boards refute the Eighth Doctor's canonicity?

I personally don't. Had no problem with anything in the TV movie, really.
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:50 am

Shatterbang wrote:
So does anybody here on these boards refute the Eighth Doctor's canonicity?

I personally don't. Had no problem with anything in the TV movie, really.

This is why I love the forum, even when we disagree, we're polite and respectful. The DW comms I've been on, duck and cover for a lot of things, which is why I generally just post pics of my Daleks. But even that got into a mini-rant about Seattle and how boring it is.

I am NOT posting anymore skyline pics on that comm now as a result.

I love Eight and am usually upset when people try and tell me that he's not part of canon. Eighth Doctor gets a figure, Eighth Doctor HAS a voice... Eighth Doctor has hugged Daleks... lol so yeah, he's real.
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:52 am

Ronpur wrote:
And those in Evil of the Daleks with the human factor

I know some people who would say that those weren't canon and not technically "good" Daleks. I want to time travel and save those Daleks and put them on the Dalek planet so they could live and not die. Crying or Very sad

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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:53 am

The Eighth Doctor to me is a part of canon. I had no issues with the movie really, and have come to enjoy many of the audio adventures.

The fact that we see McGann on screen in various montage shots that show the Doctor in all his incarnations cements Eight as canon.
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:32 am

McGann as the 8th Doctor is canon, he played the role marvellously and seeing his picture in the new series makes it firm.
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:16 am

Shatterbang wrote:
So does anybody here on these boards refute the Eighth Doctor's canonicity?

I saw someone post within the last few weeks that they didn't consider the Eighth Doctor part of the official canon. It's become a very rare sentiment, though (at least around here), since it just doesn't make sense anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:53 pm

a1cmustangpilot wrote:
If I haven't said this before, I really appreciate your nice comments about my pictures. I know that they're just pictures of toys, but I do enjoy setting the scenes, taking the pictures, and sharing them. I like creating things, especially good things.

You are welcome Smile

========================================
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:42 pm

I never understood the whole "8th Doctor is non-canonical" line of thought from any approach, of which there seem to be three:

1. "It was bad"
As much as I hated that movie, there was never any doubt in my mind that it was canon; it never occured to me to think otherwise. That would be (for me) like saying "Nightmare of Eden," "The Twin Dilemma," and "Time and the Rani" aren't canon, because I didn't like them, either.

2. "Half-Human"
If you're going to discount an episode's canonical status based on the fact that it contains an element that contradicts previously established continuity, you might as well throw out half the series! From the three destructions of Atlantis to the U.N.I.T. timeline fiasco, the whole series is full of stuff like this.

3. "It wasn't 'pure' BBC / It was a joint production with FOX"
This line of thinking fails to take into account the ever-changing nature of the television industry; how the modes and conditions of production are constantly in flux. For example, legislation was passed in 1990 which mandated that 25% of the BBC's output could not be produced in-house -- so, let's say the BBC started a new series of All Creatures Great and Small at some point after 1990, and it had to be produced either jointly or by an independent company -- does that mean it wouldn't "count"?

There was a good article in Doctor Who Magazine questioning what "canon" means in the first place, deconstructing the meaning and value of this term. Remember when "Scream of the Shalka" came out, and it was touted as the "official," "canonical" continuation of the series, and the animated Richard E. Grant was the "official," "canonical" Ninth Doctor? Well, remember how fast Shalka's whole "canonical" status got thrown out the window when the new TV series started in 2005?

Finally, here's an interesting perspective from Russell T. Davies on "canonicity" from a legal perspective, from Doctor Who Magazine 356 (pgs. 66-67):
"Do I need to read the novels in order to learn about the (Time) War and understand what's happening on screen?
Again, no. Absolutely, no. Yes, in the novels, there was a War, and the Doctor's world was destroyed. But no, that's not what Chris Eccleston's Doctor is about on screen -- this war, the Time War, is brand new and belongs to you, the viewer. This actually highlights something unique about Doctor Who in the world of sci-fi and fantasy: the fact that it's made by a Public Service Broadcaster, and is paid for by you, the licence-fee payer. As a consequence of this status, the BBC has to be very careful with its merchandising. We're very happy for you to enjoy the Doctor off-screen, and read the new novels, and play with a toy or two, if you want, but we must never, ever make that purchase necessary. That would crack the BBC's charter in half. We cannot, must not, demand that you buy a product. Honestly, the vital and strict guidelines would be broken, and I'd be held prisoner in a BBC jail, sandwiched between the man who invented Lesley Joseph's Rumble, and the Celebrity Stopover team. To spell it out: if you had to buy a BBC novel in order to understand the plot, as transmitted on BBC One, then we would be breaking the BBC's guidelines."
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:27 pm

Personally i didn't want him to be canon because it used a regeneration, I've since gotten over that, i even suggested new 8th Doctor tv adventures that could be shown between current series, the same way Star Trek had multiple shows.
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:31 pm

I still think he ought to be brought back in a multiple Doctors episode. Especially since it's doubtful they could get Eccleston to return.
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:36 pm

Doctor Detroit wrote:
i even suggested new 8th Doctor tv adventures that could be shown between current series, the same way Star Trek had multiple shows.
Before Dreamland came out, I remember reading an interview with the animators who were hoping to do an animated series, with each episode featuring a different Doctor. Nothing ever came of it but one can dream.

Shatterbang wrote:
I still think he ought to be brought back in a multiple Doctors episode.
That would be beyond awesome. I love mutli-Doctor stories. I don't care how bad the actual stories are, they are just so much fun.
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PostSubject: Eight is great, Cushing's Doc a bit of a harder puzzle   Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:33 am

I have been following DW since the Pertwee days and of them all, McGann has held greatest appeal to me, despite the lack of TV time relative to his peers in the role. I will say that Eight has benefitted greatly by having the greatest number of BBC novels, adventuresome comic adventures in DWM and a set of Big Finish audios that flesh out McGann's portrayal more fully. Add some interesting companions too. In many ways, I suspect Eight's rich post Movie legacy is in part due to the lack of screen time and writers therefore feeling less encumbered by TV continuity. I do wish however McGann would get more screen time, as he is quite good in the part and it would be good to see him on TV again. I think the odds of a Time War flashback are now very remote, so our only hope I fear is a multi Doc story.

Cushing's Doc and continuity is a tough one for me only because the script of the first one seems to re-write the established "origin story" from the show. Without that, I might be able to rationalize Cushing as a younger or alternate version of the First. There are some family companion issues in the movies v. show as well.

In a final bit of rationalization for Eight and the fan-befuddling "half human Mom" quote, I would have blamed regenerative ramblings but Davies' TEOT appearance of Woman in White (pearls and earthly business attire no less) might make the "Mom issue" even more complex, depending on your view.
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:47 pm

I choose to see Cushing as an alternate universe Doctor.
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:49 am

McGann's Doctor is canon. I don't inderstand why this could even be in question. He was seen regenerated from the previous Doctor in a BBC produced (or actually co-produced) broadcast shown worldwide, was the current "official Doctor" by the BBC for audios, comics, and books following the TV Movie up to 2005, and his likeness used in the current series. Also, he is shown alongside the preceding and succeding Doctors in all of the Beeb's official press, etc. The only question for me is the canocal nature of the novels, audios, and comics. In other genre programs like Babylon 5 or Star Trek, only the episodes and movies are canon with very few exceptions. But the McGann Eighth Doctor himself? No question. He is the Eighth Doctor. Period.
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:41 pm

yes, yes, and yes. oh, yes, one more thing.


shada,
shada,
shada........


sorry, i have the original vhs release with tom baker, and in my opinion, mcgann outdid the original with his audio play. how many people can say that?
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:10 pm

bret_owen99 wrote:
yes, yes, and yes. oh, yes, one more thing.


shada,
shada,
shada........


sorry, i have the original vhs release with tom baker, and in my opinion, mcgann outdid the original with his audio play. how many people can say that?

I have yet to listen to that one but I've heard that it's really great! But how could it not be, it's got Romana and K-9 in it!
~
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