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 Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!

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PostSubject: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:00 am

I've noticed in a few DW comms that there is an awful amount of dislike (and possible hate) against the 1996 "Doctor Who" movie. Sometimes it's based purely on the fact that it was made by the US, but a majority of the ones who dislike the movie and reject Eight as canon seem to do so because of the "half-human" remark that both the Doctor and the Master made. Personally, I'm not sure what the big deal is about that remark anyways.

I've heard that people accept Eight as canon as far as the fact that he existed and seven regenerated into him, but everything else, his adventures onscreen and in the audios, are non-canon.

I find that amusing, because if that is possible to do, to reject everything about Eight and Eight himself, then I reject Eleven entirely based on the fact that I just don't like him.



...kidding... Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:01 am

Oh, since I couldn't quite say this on the comms without fear of getting my head bitten off as a result (seriously you'd think Eight was Edward Cullen or something), I'll say it here since there are plenty of Eight fans...


EIGHT IS CANON!


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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:51 am

Yeah, I don't see how you can reject his canonicity at this point... Dude's face has been onscreen twice with all the other doctors. I can see rejecting the novels, comics, audio, etc, but even then, it's not like Who has a hard and fast law of canon anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:54 am

ReverendKain wrote:
Yeah, I don't see how you can reject his canonicity at this point... Dude's face has been onscreen twice with all the other doctors. I can see rejecting the novels, comics, audio, etc, but even then, it's not like Who has a hard and fast law of canon anyway.

If I could reject 11 based purely on the fact that I don't like him, it's quite easy for people to reject Eight for no reason as well. It doesn't matter if his face appears several times alongside the other Doctors or in the 11-Doctor set. People reject canon all the time because it doesn't fit into their fanon.

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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:56 am

Yes, but... people are irrational and that makes no sense. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:01 pm

ReverendKain wrote:
Yes, but... people are irrational and that makes no sense. Smile

I have known this for a very long time, especially in light of recent events.

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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:16 pm

ReverendKain wrote:
Yeah, I don't see how you can reject his canonicity at this point... Dude's face has been onscreen twice with all the other doctors. I can see rejecting the novels, comics, audio, etc, but even then, it's not like Who has a hard and fast law of canon anyway.
^ This.

Fans often find loopholes to dismiss something they dislike, and this is one of those cases. Fortunately, RTD (and Moffat) made sure to show Eight onscreen on several occasions, and thus cement his canonicity.

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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:22 pm

^o^CORVUS^o^ wrote:
ReverendKain wrote:
Yeah, I don't see how you can reject his canonicity at this point... Dude's face has been onscreen twice with all the other doctors. I can see rejecting the novels, comics, audio, etc, but even then, it's not like Who has a hard and fast law of canon anyway.
^ This.

Fans often find loopholes to dismiss something they dislike, and this is one of those cases. Fortunately, RTD (and Moffat) made sure to show Eight onscreen on several occasions, and thus cement his canonicity.



Which means nothing to anyone who just dismisses it on the grounds that they don't like it. It doesn't matter if it is shown onscreen or not, they get rid of it or insert what they want.

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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:28 pm

Eight is so canon!!!!! As it's already been mentioned, he's been shown onscreen with the other Doctors. As far as Eight and others saying he's half human, well...there are many ways to interpret that, including face value, if one prefers -- I prefer to believe that the Doctor had some reason to say so, or maybe he believed so at the time, or that he was misdirecting or otherwise lying...but you can make those arguments as long as nothing's been declared as TV series, onscreen canon, which is where I choose to take my canon from with few exceptions...but that's neither here nor there.

I've actually heard fans state that canon begins with Hartnell and ends with McCoy, so whatever...

There are a few things that I understand happened in the audio stories, and/or certain novels that I reject because it's not really addressed onscreen...but I guess part of the fun of a canon-in-flux is that you can mess with it in between the fixed points! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:47 pm

a1cmustangpilot wrote:

Which means nothing to anyone who just dismisses it on the grounds that they don't like it. It doesn't matter if it is shown onscreen or not, they get rid of it or insert what they want.
Which is fine by me, because I can dismiss their dismissal. "Fans" have been doing these things for a long, long time. I don't have energy for such petty notions, and I tend to wash my hands of their type.

In Transformers fandom, there's a notorious old-school G1 fan called Raksha, who is a huge fan of Megatron and the Decepticons. That's fine on first blush, because its okay to like fictional villains.

However, in her mind, the Decepticons are good and the Autobots evil. The evil acts done by the Decepticons are the result of "Autobot Propoganda", the Decepticons are noble predators, who are superior and thus have the right to conquer, and the Autobots are cowards who oppress the the Decepticons goals.

Again, this is all well and good if you're talking fanfic (Like your awesome Dalek photo-stories). Heck, there's a whole alternate fiction TF universe created by the official hasbro TF club called "Shattered Glass" in which the Decepticons are truly good and noble, and the Autobots are evil, depraved despots. However, Raksha has stated that the original G1 cartoon supports her claims...which is most clearly does not. She simply likes the Decepticons better, and evidently felt the internal need to justify her stance by distorting what she saw, and she would argue you until you were blue in the face that her vision was the true and correct one.

Again, its okay to like fictional villains because there's no harm in it. My favorite comic character is Thanos, who overall is a villain and an occasional reluctant anti-hero. I make no apologies for his villainous acts, because its all a fictional story. I don't need to find ways to justify the things he's done, because they never actually happened.

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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:02 pm

I'm glad you brought up Transformers because that's another fandom that I can relate to! Very Happy It's fairly easy for me to ignore what some people want to dismiss that is actually canon because I generally don't participate in such conversations, but there have been a few that I've been drawn to and have regretted it since. I shouldn't have been surprised at the dislike in Eight, but after being on here where a great many of us can't wait to have the Eighth Doctor figure, I got too comfortable.

Plus the anti-American statements that a few have made have upset me some, even though that it wasn't directed at me, directly, it was just the fact that it was said. However, I also am thinking that in one comm in particular, people just need to be dissing something in order to feel like they've accomplished something. That's how it appears anyways. That you cannot get through a discussion without dissing something else.

As far as canon goes with DW, I find it difficult to keep a timeline straight, so I don't even bother. Apparently this makes me something of a bad fan because there is very little that I reject as canon that appears in the audios, books, movies, and the series itself. I've even accepted the Cushing movies as some sort of canon for the sake of Gemini meeting up with young Susan and becoming her friend.

Oh yeah, I don't accept my "good" Daleks as canon, although I keep hoping for a canon "good" Dalek. Very Happy I also won't justify the actions of the evil Daleks. I mess with canon for my stories only. And I hope you know, I was only kidding about Eleven. I don't reject him, or the fez. Very Happy

In a recent fandom, I really didn't like two characters in the series and I had briefly explained why, and then someone else tried to justify the actions through her own personal fanon, which involved things that weren't canon at all. It did nothing for my opinion of the two characters because it wasn't canon. If someone wants to talk about fanon, fine, but trying to convince me to like characters on something that I disapprove of to begin with that's purely fanon is not a good way to convince me.

Like with my good Daleks. Canon-wise, they are evil. The only ones that probably could have been good were the ones in "Evil of the Daleks" and then possibly "Dalek", had the poor thing not grenaded itself. But that's speculation. When I try to convince others of the goodness in my Daleks, they know that they are MY Daleks, my fanon...
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:04 pm

Vicki wrote:
Eight is so canon!!!!! As it's already been mentioned, he's been shown onscreen with the other Doctors. As far as Eight and others saying he's half human, well...there are many ways to interpret that, including face value, if one prefers -- I prefer to believe that the Doctor had some reason to say so, or maybe he believed so at the time, or that he was misdirecting or otherwise lying...but you can make those arguments as long as nothing's been declared as TV series, onscreen canon, which is where I choose to take my canon from with few exceptions...but that's neither here nor there.

I've actually heard fans state that canon begins with Hartnell and ends with McCoy, so whatever...

There are a few things that I understand happened in the audio stories, and/or certain novels that I reject because it's not really addressed onscreen...but I guess part of the fun of a canon-in-flux is that you can mess with it in between the fixed points! Very Happy

Yeah, I like canon-flux and DW is one of the great fandoms that allows for that, but what drives me crazy are those that expect everyone else to reject the same things that they do on the grounds that something just doesn't appeal to them. :/

I adore Eight, and he is definitely canon in my eyes. Each Doctor is canon, and though poor Cushing Doctor has nowhere in my own personal fanon timeline, I consider him to be a parallel universe type Doctor. Very Happy

I don't mind rejecting canon for the sake of fic, roleplaying, or any other creative endeavors, but for discussion? That makes it incredibly difficult to try and discuss something. :/
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:10 pm

a1cmustangpilot wrote:

Oh yeah, I don't accept my "good" Daleks as canon, although I keep hoping for a canon "good" Dalek. Very Happy I also won't justify the actions of the evil Daleks. I mess with canon for my stories only. And I hope you know, I was only kidding about Eleven. I don't reject him, or the fez. Very Happy

Like with my good Daleks. Canon-wise, they are evil. The only ones that probably could have been good were the ones in "Evil of the Daleks" and then possibly "Dalek", had the poor thing not grenaded itself. But that's speculation. When I try to convince others of the goodness in my Daleks, they know that they are MY Daleks, my fanon...

My point exactly. You've taken these characters, and made up your own personal (and beautifully photographed) side-universe where Daleks can be good, but don't act as if that's the way it is in the main DW universe. That's not only okay, but pretty darned nifty, and it speaks to the richness of the DW universe and how it fires the imagination.

And you are right also, that taking one's fanon and trying to apply it to discussions about what has been seen onscreen can be terribly confusing for people, who may say "Where did you get that from?", and then that person has to explain that they didn't see or hear it onscreen, that its just what they feel happened, and at that point the discussion can get off-track.

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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:58 pm

Nobody can rationally argue against Eight's canonicity anymore; any such argument is devoid of evidentiary support. In fact, the evidence demonstrates that Eight is, without a doubt, canon. As has already been pointed out, the only authoritative source on the matter (the show itself) has confirmed his canonicity on four separate occasions: his picture appears in the journal in "Human Nature," and his actual face appears in flashback in "The Next Doctor," "The Eleventh Hour," and "The Lodger". Furthermore, the BBC acknowledges Eight as an official Doctor, and creates and/or authorizes promotional materials, multimedia tie-ins, and merchandise pertaining to that version of the character. Any claim that Eight isn't canon is simply daft. While the spin-off media are questionable, and the TV movie had some problematic (in terms of continuity) bits of dialogue, the character is clearly part of the official canon.

As to people who deny him because he doesn't fit their conception of the character, or because they didn't like the movie, that's up to them, I suppose. They're wrong, but they have the right to be incorrect and make assertions that sound utterly delusional if they so desire. Of course, it's a fictional character, so it's not as if any of this really matters, but still... Smile

There are some strange people in fandom.
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:10 pm

a1cmustangpilot wrote:
Canon-wise, they are evil. The only ones that probably could have been good were the ones in "Evil of the Daleks" and then possibly "Dalek", had the poor thing not grenaded itself. But that's speculation.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but there was an Eighth Doctor comic strip in which he encountered good Daleks. It's not canon, obviously, but since you're a fan of Eight and the idea of good Daleks, I thought I'd mention it in case you didn't know. It's a sequel to "Evil of the Daleks" entitled "Children of the Revolution" and is reprinted in volume three of the Complete Eighth Doctor Comics.
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:18 pm

mysterylad wrote:
a1cmustangpilot wrote:
Canon-wise, they are evil. The only ones that probably could have been good were the ones in "Evil of the Daleks" and then possibly "Dalek", had the poor thing not grenaded itself. But that's speculation.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but there was an Eighth Doctor comic strip in which he encountered good Daleks. It's not canon, obviously, but since you're a fan of Eight and the idea of good Daleks, I thought I'd mention it in case you didn't know. It's a sequel to "Evil of the Daleks" entitled "Children of the Revolution" and is reprinted in volume three of the Complete Eighth Doctor Comics.

Ever since putting up my Daleks up on here, I have been made aware of the comics and I think it is cool! I love hearing about it each time, it's like a reminder that there is a verse out there that has them in it!

I should really find this comic!
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:21 pm

There's another story called "Fire and Brimstone" in an earlier volume that has the Daleks attempt to gain access to parallel universes...which brings them into conflict with alternate Daleks even nastier than the ones we're used to!
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:49 pm

Lets put it this way...

Is Cushing in the new 11 Doctors set?

Is Mcgann in the new 11 Doctors set?

I rest my case. 8 is cannon whether people like it or not. A similar story would be that I used to class "Christmas Invasion" as series 1, but the BBC themselves said it was series 2 and I facd that. No biggie, I don't see what the poblem is...

Besides, Eight is awesome. How can people hate THE kindest and most friendliest incarnation of the Doctor?

I genuinely feel soy for those who do. But as they say, to each their own... *Sigh*
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:09 pm

Sylvester McCoy turned into Paul McGann. That's enough for me.

Yes, the TV movie was made in the US, but it was supervised by the BBC. Did it leave us with some head scratching? Of course! Did I think Eric Robert's mouth looked weird when he screamed? Yes! Are there ways to explain around the different look of the TARDIS interior, the Eye of Harmony on board the TARDIS, the weird Daleks, and the infamous half-human debacle? Totally.

I've seen people on IMDb say, "Peter Cushing has more of a claim than Paul McGann because he was in two movies," completely ignoring the even more glaring inconsistencies and lack of regenerations in the Cushing movies.

Paul McGann was a great Doctor. Sure, his sole TV appearance didn't have the best story, but 14 years and three Doctors later, what can you do? (BRING BACK MCGANN!)
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:46 pm

^o^CORVUS^o^ wrote:
a1cmustangpilot wrote:

Oh yeah, I don't accept my "good" Daleks as canon, although I keep hoping for a canon "good" Dalek. Very Happy I also won't justify the actions of the evil Daleks. I mess with canon for my stories only. And I hope you know, I was only kidding about Eleven. I don't reject him, or the fez. Very Happy

Like with my good Daleks. Canon-wise, they are evil. The only ones that probably could have been good were the ones in "Evil of the Daleks" and then possibly "Dalek", had the poor thing not grenaded itself. But that's speculation. When I try to convince others of the goodness in my Daleks, they know that they are MY Daleks, my fanon...

My point exactly. You've taken these characters, and made up your own personal (and beautifully photographed) side-universe where Daleks can be good, but don't act as if that's the way it is in the main DW universe. That's not only okay, but pretty darned nifty, and it speaks to the richness of the DW universe and how it fires the imagination.

And you are right also, that taking one's fanon and trying to apply it to discussions about what has been seen onscreen can be terribly confusing for people, who may say "Where did you get that from?", and then that person has to explain that they didn't see or hear it onscreen, that its just what they feel happened, and at that point the discussion can get off-track.

aww thanks! Yeah, I think I might have gotten one of my internet friends interested in DW because of the Dalek pics that I post on my own LJ. I've told her repeatedly that the Daleks in the show are all completely evil, so if she ever watches it, I hope she doesn't get too confused!

I get defensive over my fanon though, like if someone tries to tell me that it's impossible for Gemini to be a "good" Dalek because all Daleks are evil and cannot ever possibly be good. I've actually had to deal with something like that, and it's the only instance that I've gotten highly protective of my own fanon. I don't consider it canon at all, but I am still allowed to dream in my own DW verse where I have in existence, good Daleks. They weave in and out of canon timeline, but it's like they flow on their own.

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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:56 pm

There's got to be a parallel where the Daleks are good, and that's the REAL reason why Davros wanted to destroy all realities: he knew there were good-guy Daleks out there that may come and kick his shriveled booty *lol* Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:35 pm

If it appeared on television it is Canon. If it didnt, it isnt. At least in my book.

So, the 8th Doctor is Canon to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:58 pm

Hoosier Whovian wrote:
If it appeared on television it is Canon. If it didnt, it isnt. At least in my book.

So, the 8th Doctor is Canon to me.

I agree. The televised stories, not including parodies, are canon, especially as that was the initial medium for them.
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:47 pm

Oh, he is canon. And I consider his audios canon as well, since we have no other media for him.

But there are doubters out there still, deniers in fact..

Just as there are some who do not believe Timothy Dalton could be Rassilon, because we saw his tomb in The Five Doctors. But, that of course, ignores the fact we are dealing with Timelords in the middle of a 4th dimensional war, and all the rules are forgotten.
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PostSubject: Re: Eighth Doctor, canon... needs some love!   Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:30 am

jaredofmo wrote:
Hoosier Whovian wrote:
If it appeared on television it is Canon. If it didnt, it isnt. At least in my book.

So, the 8th Doctor is Canon to me.

I agree. The televised stories, not including parodies, are canon, especially as that was the initial medium for them.

See, for me, the books can go either way for me, however with the Eighth Doctor audio, since I have nothing but the movie, I consider them canon. It helps show the Eighth Doctor in all his wonderful glory and it helps shed light on him as well.

I know that the audios have taken a life of their own, but can anyone honestly blame me for treating it as canon when we've only had the Eighth Doctor movie?
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