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 "Growing-up" theme this season?

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CJSchmidt
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PostSubject: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Mon May 24, 2010 11:32 am

I was elsewhere on the internet and someone mentioned how fallible this Doctor seems to be compared to the Superman/Jesus Doctor of the past. This could just be Moffat looking to add some depth and drama to the show, but I think there may be a solid theme here. It's seems obvious that Amy's tenure on the Tardis is going to lead to her "growing up", but it seems like the Doctor is getting lessons too.

Ep1: The Doctor messes up and caused untold emotional scarring on a little girl he met.

Ep2: The Doctor makes a rash decision and almost kills a Star Whale. The running away discussion.

Ep3: The Doctor completely misses the point while trying to talk Bracewell down. He also loses it with the Dalek and gives them exactly what they want.

Ep4: Father Octavian chastises the Doctor for talking deaths too lightly.

Ep5: The Doctor casually leaves Amy in the forest leading to all sorts of trouble.

Ep6: The Doctor realizes that he ruins relationships. Signora Calvierri challenges him on Gallifrey. Isabella dies. Rory makes a very insightful point about how the Doctor endangers his companions.

Spoiler:
 

I'm sure there are a lot more examples too.

It makes me wonder if the Doctor himself isn't the big baddie this series. Maybe he does something to cause the crack and has to fix it or stand trial for what he's done.

Of course maybe having him screw up from time to time just makes for a more interesting story.
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Mon May 24, 2010 11:38 am

OMG, you described me to a T, and that rhymes with THE, and besides portraying The Valeyard, I also portrayed The Doctor!
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Mon May 24, 2010 5:36 pm

maybe they are doing all this, so when smith regenerates, we will get a doctor older than 40, who will be grown up. ala: hartnell, troughton, pertwee.
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Mon May 24, 2010 5:55 pm

bret_owen99 wrote:
maybe they are doing all this, so when smith regenerates, we will get a doctor older than 40, who will be grown up. ala: hartnell, troughton, pertwee.

I hope so. I think the childish antics in an older looking Doctor go over better for me than in Matt Smith.
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 4:47 am

I have serious doubts that we're going to ever get a Doctor older than 40. The opinion of TPTB is that only a young actor can keep up with the demands of filming the series. Personally I think this is a shame and so not true.
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 4:51 am

jfh1970 wrote:
I have serious doubts that we're going to ever get a Doctor older than 40. The opinion of TPTB is that only a young actor can keep up with the demands of filming the series. Personally I think this is a shame and so not true.

Not only that, but they'd probably think that a bunch of kids/teenagers wouldn't want to see an older guy running the show... they want someone young and attractive. However, I find that the older Doctors are far more appealling than well, Matt Smith. He looks a bit too young and acts like it. :/ Tennant was borderline, but he could get extremely serious and quite often I could read it in his eyes that he was as old as he claimed. Matt Smith needs a really serious DW story where he actually shows some depth rather than going silent during some of the most opportune moments for character growth.
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 4:57 am

a1cmustangpilot wrote:

Not only that, but they'd probably think that a bunch of kids/teenagers wouldn't want to see an older guy running the show... they want someone young and attractive.

I so agree with you on this. Movies like Twilight only convince TPTB that this is the way DW should be. So sad.
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 5:04 am

jfh1970 wrote:
a1cmustangpilot wrote:

Not only that, but they'd probably think that a bunch of kids/teenagers wouldn't want to see an older guy running the show... they want someone young and attractive.

I so agree with you on this. Movies like Twilight only convince TPTB that this is the way DW should be. So sad.

The younger they get, the less interested I become.

Well, I take that back. I adore kid movies for the fact that I love the themes and the lessons that are involved. So if they truly are kid/family movies, I'll watch them. But when it comes to teenage stuff, no. I hated highschool angst-fests and I especially hate it in movies. I can't stand "Twilight" and in my own mind, there aren't any sparkly vampires or starry-eyed werewolves in my state... the Daleks came and exterminated them for becoming more popular than them... and being an inferior species...

I like the concept of the Doctor being as old as he is travelling with a moderately young companion. There was this picture book I was reading a while back that mentioned that it was easy for a person to talk to the grandfather and his grandson because the grandfather is experienced and understanding whilst the grandson is new and has much to learn, so it made it easier for a person to open up. I love that idea and I think it is very true, at least, for the veterans I talk to it seems the case.

Being younger doesn't necessarily mean better. Unless they're whole concept is to show that, as adults, we shouldn't discount the value of anyone younger than us... then that's a bit different. But a whole season of it, no thanks. Plus... it's more amusing (and forgiving) when an older person is acting childish where if a younger person is acting childish, it's just annoying, like it is right now. :/
~
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 7:38 am

a1cmustangpilot wrote:
I can't stand "Twilight" and in my own mind, there aren't any sparkly vampires or starry-eyed werewolves in my state... the Daleks came and exterminated them for becoming more popular than them... and being an inferior species...

Twilight: Extermination. That movie I will see!!!

I do think Matt's Doctor has an ageless quality to him, but he looses it when he becomes to excited! I wish he had an older companion, such as Wilfred to contrast with his youth. But I love Wilf, so any excuse to keep him on would be great!
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 7:42 am

A1 again I feel we're on the same page...sort of. I really do like the Twilight movies, but when everything seems to be modeled on them then it becomes sickening and boring pretty quickly. I think that's another reason why I was not thrilled at first to hear that Smith was going to be the Doctor. I felt that TPTB were trying to catch a ride on the "Twilight" wagon.

I remember reading somewhere that the age thing becomes more apparent when viewers like myself get older. I agree with that up to a point when it comes down to my opinion on what's around to watch on tv and in the movies. I don't have a problem watching younger characters though (I love Harry Potter too) but I like to have variety. Unfortunately, there's this attitude that only young, in shape and pretty is acceptable in today's society. As a result, the variety factor diminishes greatly.
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 8:25 am

I don't know if a TPTB theory works on Matt. When the Moff went onto casting looking for an actor in their 40s, but decided to go with Matt based on what he did. Personally, I love what Matt is doing with the role. He is different, but still the same Doctor. Just like they all have been in my mind. I just wish his stories were a bit more "grand" or something.
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 8:38 am

The whole TBTB theory is utter nonsense...people will try to justify their grumblings with just about any non-fact they can get away with. First rule of scientific inquiry: "Correlation does not prove causation."
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 8:48 am

Let me clarify that I have no problem with Smith as the Doctor. He reminds me so much of Troughton which is a good thing seeing that not much of the Troughton era exists.

Moff may have said that he was looking for some one in his 40s, but saying and doing are two different things.
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 12:22 pm

Ronpur wrote:
a1cmustangpilot wrote:
I can't stand "Twilight" and in my own mind, there aren't any sparkly vampires or starry-eyed werewolves in my state... the Daleks came and exterminated them for becoming more popular than them... and being an inferior species...

Twilight: Extermination. That movie I will see!!!

I do think Matt's Doctor has an ageless quality to him, but he looses it when he becomes to excited! I wish he had an older companion, such as Wilfred to contrast with his youth. But I love Wilf, so any excuse to keep him on would be great!

I actually wrote a fanfic on it because I had been irked one too many times by people and had to get it out of my system. A lot of random people commented on it, saying how much it was needed. In the disclaimer I wrote, "do not read this if you love 'Twilight'." I get that people love it, and I respect that. But having it shoved on me constantly will result in Dalek extermination now. Very Happy

Back on subject, it's harder for me to trust Matt Smith as the Doctor because he is so young and he acts like it. The Doctor does act like a child quite often (love those pouts from 4) but the thing is, when it comes to saving the universe and being old and wise, it's hard for me to trust someone who does something like that.

I used to love watching "Highlander" and my two favourite characters have always been Darius and Methos. Darius was supposed to be over 2,000 years old. I could trust him to be wise and understanding more than Methos because of how he acted. It took a while for me to trust that Methos had that potential as well because he acted the age he looked, despite being older.
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 12:34 pm

If you're looking for maturity, you're looking at the wrong fictional character.

First Doctor: an old curmudgeon, but every bit as petulant as a small child.
Second Doctor: always got panicky around monsters and bucked authority for his own amusement.
Third Doctor: the first one to be mature, really...and yet, he did aikido and dashed around in boy-toys such as Bessie and the Whomobile.
Fourth Doctor: a clown; the wisdom and intelligence were there, but matched in every way by buffoonery and recklessness.
Fifth Doctor: the second mature Doctor, and probably the one one who behaved as such consistently.
Sixth Doctor: the worst character traits of the First ratcheted up to 11; arrogant, self-absorbed, petulant, sulky...a brilliant child, on his best day.
Seventh: wise, mysterious...and prone to using those centuries of wisdom and experience to manipulate everyone around him, from the Daleks to Ace. A mature Doctor is a scary Doctor.
Eighth: probably the best balance of wisdom, intelligence, and light quirkiness (esp. in his flair for the romantic).
Ninth: angry and laden with baggage...propensity for thinking he's better than everyone else.
Tenth: lighter than #9, but still loaded with baggage and the same propensity for thinking he's better than everyone else. Even decides to start rewriting time simply because there's nobody around to stop him.

So if you don't like Matt Smith for acting young, how many of these guys DO you like? Smile


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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 12:35 pm

He may have picked a young actor, but the Doctor definitely feels older than he has in a while. The tweed. The tie. "That reminds me, there's a girl standing outside in a bikini. Can someone let her in and give her a jumper? Lucy. Lovely girl. Diabetic."
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 12:37 pm

CJSchmidt wrote:
He may have picked a young actor, but the Doctor definitely feels older than he has in a while. The tweed. The tie. "That reminds me, there's a girl standing outside in a bikini. Can someone let her in and give her a jumper? Lucy. Lovely girl. Diabetic."

Exactly. Oldest Doctor we've seen since McCoy. Observe his rejection of Amy's advances, also.
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 12:38 pm

CJSchmidt wrote:
He may have picked a young actor, but the Doctor definitely feels older than he has in a while. The tweed. The tie. "That reminds me, there's a girl standing outside in a bikini. Can someone let her in and give her a jumper? Lucy. Lovely girl. Diabetic."

I seemed to have forgotten which episode that came out of!
~
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 12:52 pm

mysterylad wrote:
CJSchmidt wrote:
He may have picked a young actor, but the Doctor definitely feels older than he has in a while. The tweed. The tie. "That reminds me, there's a girl standing outside in a bikini. Can someone let her in and give her a jumper? Lucy. Lovely girl. Diabetic."

Exactly. Oldest Doctor we've seen since McCoy. Observe his rejection of Amy's advances, also.

The reason I like Smith so much is because I see a LOT of McCoy's antics in him, who incidentally is my 2nd favorite Doctor.

A lot of comparisons have been made between Smith and Troughton but I gotta say I see more McCoy in him, which to me is a good thing.

Poor Sylvester really got the short end. Great Doctor, yet some of the worst stories ever. Really got rolling again in his final season before the whole series got the axe.
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 2:36 pm

a1cmustangpilot wrote:
CJSchmidt wrote:
He may have picked a young actor, but the Doctor definitely feels older than he has in a while. The tweed. The tie. "That reminds me, there's a girl standing outside in a bikini. Can someone let her in and give her a jumper? Lucy. Lovely girl. Diabetic."

I seemed to have forgotten which episode that came out of!
~

"The Vampires of Venice." He says it after he pops out of the cake in the intro sequence.
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 5:24 pm

personally, i loved the dreamlord(the actor and the character). maybe that's because i'm so mean.
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 6:34 pm

He was a cool character. I didn't much care for the Valeyard, but this iteration of the Doctor's darker half is pretty interesting.
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 7:11 pm

if you actually look at the comparison's in character, the valeyard was like the 6th doctor, while the dreamlord was like the 11th doctor. almost every line the dreamlord said seemed to make 11 wince. because he knew that what he was saying was true. i really loved the line smith said about knowing who he was. best acting of the whole series so far. this episode was on my tops.

like i've said, i think smith is doing a good job, i just think the writing is sub-par. colin baker showed everyone by doing the audio dramas that it wasn't his fault his doctor's time failed. the trial of a time lord was everything the 6th doctor's era should have been, but by that time, it was already too late.

sorry, got carried away there. anyways, hope smith does act a little more grown up by next season(imo, not kicking things anymore ala dalek, gravity globe)
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 8:40 pm

I never saw the 11th Doctor as having a temper tantrum when he went head to head with the Dalek. I just thought it was his way of provoking the Dalek to admit what its true nature was.
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PostSubject: Re: "Growing-up" theme this season?   Tue May 25, 2010 10:34 pm

bret_owen99 wrote:
like i've said, i think smith is doing a good job, i just think the writing is sub-par. colin baker showed everyone by doing the audio dramas that it wasn't his fault his doctor's time failed. the trial of a time lord was everything the 6th doctor's era should have been, but by that time, it was already too late.

Yeah, Trial of a Time Lord was definitely his best TV work, and the audios have done a great deal to vindicate poor Colin Baker. It's funny: I never cared for the Sixth Doctor until after the audios were really chugging along, and then I was able to watch his episodes with new eyes. The subtle evolution of the character he was shooting for is easier to spot when you're aware of it in advance, and the character is actually fairly entertaining when you know where he's ultimately headed. Colin Baker and JNT made a mistake when they decided to plan the character's development over the longterm, but they couldn't really have known what a misstep it was at the time.

I think the first Smith/Moffat series might have a similar problem, at least to a degree.

I am starting to formulate a hypothesis: Smith's performance has already solidified...his Doctor emerged immediately, right off the starting line. I wonder if some of the stories have fallen flat with some viewers (I say "some" because the ratings remain quite good) because the writers have yet to grasp the character and his universe to the degree as Smith has. It could be that the writers had one plan--a totally different take on the Doctor--and now they're playing catch-up. There could be a logical disconnect between character and environment that's causing people to express disappointment in the new series without being able to explicitly state just what the problem is!

Anyway, I'm still enjoying the heck out of this season. I think more of the Smith skeptics will come around as time goes by and the show's creative gears all slide into place a little more seamlessly.
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