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 The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!

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CJSchmidt
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:07 am

Agreed. For all the complaining people have done over RTDs looser writing style, it leaves a lot of places for the fans to speculate and future writers to make connections later on without needing to retcon things. As much as I'm looking forward to tighter writing and fewer plot holes, I hope the Moff keeps up the tradition to some extent.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:40 am

And it's helped him fill in some of his own loose ends to make it all seem like it might have been planned from the start.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:06 pm

jonwes wrote:
And it's helped him fill in some of his own loose ends to make it all seem like it might have been planned from the start.

lol, I thought that too, especially when he says he planned things from the start. At least the rebirth of the master he admitted to not knowing he was going to do that.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:19 pm

terrasolo wrote:
rooners wrote:
It could have been so much better...
The 4 knocks: great idea it being Wilf (even though most people on this forum guessed it would be) and superb scene but then it was spoilt by the fact the Doctor took so long to regenerate (never known a regeneration to take so long), it made it anti climatic.

Have to disagree there, we have never seen a slow death for the Doctor before so I found this to be a very interesting take on a death of a Doctor.

It would have been interesting if Tennant had actually been seen to struggle trying to give these last visits. He was somber, but didn't really act like he was dying until the end of the Rose cameo. He was even a bit chipper at times for a dead man. But hey, didn't Tennant learn at the end of Waters of Mars that he cannot go around saving people like that? Let's hope there won't be another rush of Whoniverse suicides...
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:31 pm

tegan4 wrote:
Hasn't it been said in books before, and again by RTD answering the question on the Official DW site, that the Doctor is half-human on his mother's side? So this would mean that the character of 'the woman' could not have been his mother. (I'm not saying I agree with this, but it seems to be somewhat 'official')

If you take the books into account, he's not half human on any side. By the time The Ancestor Cell came around, the time war with the Faction Paradox had ended, the times lines that were on rocky ground shifted and everything was back on track.

In The Blue Angel, the Doctor mentions he has a collection of memories of his youth... a half human mother and time lord father.... yet he remembered the Looms and the House of Lungbarrow.

As far as I understood it, by the start of the 2005 series it was understood he wasn't part human or anything as ridiculous as that. Probably the one mistake by Mathew Jacobs in the tv movie. And given the facts the BBC considered that topic off limits in their book guidelines I doubt it carried over and if one wants to keep the on screen rule again it's not been discussed... thank God.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:39 pm

I still remember "The Other", and when he went into The Loom, The Doctor was "born", hence why Susan called The Doctor, "Grandfather", as "The Other" was her Grandfather.

GAH.

A friend explained it all to me once, but to find the info to clear things up again, is somewhere (like my bongos)!

Blasted Faction Paradox!
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:56 pm

It gets to be a bit convoluted, I know... and Lungbarrow raised more questions than it did answers, like for instance, what exactly is Susan...
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:01 pm

From what I remember, she was the last of the true Gallifreyans to be born from parents, as the rest were part of The Loom.

I remember Sylvester McCoy said he liked the idea of The Doctor being part of The Loom, but when they did The TVM and made The Doctor half-human, he hated it.
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The 2nd Doctor Roberts
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:28 am

Evil Monkey Pope wrote:
Wilf knocked 16 times in total...He wanted to kill the Doctor 4 times over.

So he killed the 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th...wow, that's all that were left. No more Doctors.

Maybe Wilf was secretly Michael Grade all along.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:46 am

The 2nd Doctor Roberts wrote:
Evil Monkey Pope wrote:
Wilf knocked 16 times in total...He wanted to kill the Doctor 4 times over.

So he killed the 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th...wow, that's all that were left. No more Doctors.

Maybe Wilf was secretly Michael Grade all along.


ha ha ha - very good Laughing Laughing Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:42 am

Just watched both parts back-to-back again. Rubbish. A dissapointing send-off for a very popular Doctor. An overindulgent, anticlimactic mess from an otherwise very good writer in RTD. "Caves of Androzani" it ain't.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:08 pm

SeaDevil wrote:
Just watched both parts back-to-back again. Rubbish. A dissapointing send-off for a very popular Doctor. An overindulgent, anticlimactic mess from an otherwise very good writer in RTD. "Caves of Androzani" it ain't.

Completely agree - like I said, THE most disappointing episode ever...could have been brilliant.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:58 pm

I must admit that the actual ending has grown on me. Someone pointed out that we all expected Rassilon to zap him as he was pulled back into the Time Lock. Would any big amazing epic death have felt appropriate? All the build up was disappointing, but I think I will remember Tennant's departure in a good light.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:15 pm

I rather enjoyed The End of Time. But then again I usually enjoy all of the good Doctor's adventures. My favorite part of the whole two parter was the regeneration into Doctor 11. I really liked how they did that, the whole regen really messing up the TARDIS was quite fun.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:53 pm

The thing about the ending... is it seemed entirely appropriate for the era. I don't think I'd want every new series Doctor's era to end with a big send-off visiting all the old companions and all that. To me, you can only really do that once. But it felt appropriate for the RTD era - with all the lovely character moments between it's bombast and bluster. It felt very "right" to send this Doctor and this behind-the-scenes team off.

Julie Gardner said it best in Confidential, I think. It was very "emotionally satisfying."
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:58 pm

jonwes wrote:
The thing about the ending... is it seemed entirely appropriate for the era. I don't think I'd want every new series Doctor's era to end with a big send-off visiting all the old companions and all that. To me, you can only really do that once. But it felt appropriate for the RTD era - with all the lovely character moments between it's bombast and bluster. It felt very "right" to send this Doctor and this behind-the-scenes team off.

Julie Gardner said it best in Confidential, I think. It was very "emotionally satisfying."
Totally agree with that point, it was appropriate to allow Doctor 10 to get his goodbyes in before the big change. The only thing I hoping for was that perhaps each visit could have seen him look a little closer to regeneration, whatever that means.... Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:03 pm

It is the first time the Doctor ever really had a family or extended family. I think the closest could be the UNIT era with Pertwee...
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:37 pm

jonwes wrote:
The thing about the ending... is it seemed entirely appropriate for the era. I don't think I'd want every new series Doctor's era to end with a big send-off visiting all the old companions and all that. To me, you can only really do that once. But it felt appropriate for the RTD era - with all the lovely character moments between it's bombast and bluster. It felt very "right" to send this Doctor and this behind-the-scenes team off.

Julie Gardner said it best in Confidential, I think. It was very "emotionally satisfying."

I agree. I loved the story, the send off, the good byes and regeneration.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:24 pm

Was anybody else thinking of this whenever The Master talking about the drumming in his head?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpLXQorSQe8
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:28 pm

meLthevamp wrote:

The Doctor's last words.. Were disapointing. Because it showed in the end he was giving into his weaker side, and well... actualy I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Shocked

When you check out the Confidential for the episode, they filmed several versions of the last line. One had him even more emotional than the one they aired. Based mostly on DT's viewing, they chose the version that aired. To me it just showed he just didn't want to give up another regeneration just yet and was okay. I actually liked the one from his Sarah Jane Adventures appearance better.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:56 pm

I didn't mind that last line at all.

He's not getting any younger. He's probably getting more and more mindful of his mortality as he gets up there in regenerations. Makes sense he wouldn't want to give one up.

Also, its hard to tell how Time Lords internalize their incarnations. Its not asking too much to believe that they have favorites. I like the idea that the Doc just really loved who he was as Number Ten and didn't want to change.

As for Matt Smith's initial post-incarnation zaniness, I liked that too. I was really not looking forward to seeing Matt Smith in the role, because I was really afraid I wouldn't like him, but I did like what little I saw. It reminded me of Pertwee's post-regeneration goofiness when he commented that his new eyebrows would be good for communicating on the planet Delphon.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:00 pm

DacaZ wrote:
Also, its hard to tell how Time Lords internalize their incarnations. Its not asking too much to believe that they have favorites. I like the idea that the Doc just really loved who he was as Number Ten and didn't want to change.

The Room with No Doors, from the New Adventures really goes into detail about this. As does Time Wyrm: Revelation and Cat's Cradle: Time's Crucible as well as Head Games.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:32 pm

terrasolo wrote:
Personally I don't think the Doctor looking at Donna at that moment was anything more than avoidance to Wilf's question. The Doctor wasn't there to tell his life story, he was there to say good bye to his friends. He came to see Wilf and Donna. So when Wilf asked the Doctor politely reminded him of why he was there.

When the Doctor looks at Donna the shot is of Donna with her mother in the foreground. I really think it is supposed to be his mother.

Otherwise, I really hated most of both episodes. Loved the scene in the diner where the Doctor almost starts to cry thinking about how he was going to die, but when he finds out he's just going to regenerate it turns into him whining about how he doesn't want to and how it isn't fair. A really unfitting and pitiful way to go out. He's constantly putting his life on the line to save other people without hesitation, but now the thought of regenerating is deeply upsetting to him? He shoud have been relieved. These episodes were more about RTD than anything else.

The visits at the end would have made a lot more sense when the Doctor still thought he was going to die. Why didn't he he visit them before going to the Ood planet at the beginning? He delayed going there because he was convinced that was the beginning of his end. The idea that a regeneration means that he isn't going to see any of these people again is silly. He met most of them as the 9th Doctor.

I like the idea of giving the new team a clean slate to start with, but I will be dissapointed if there isn't some overlap with these characters.

And I personally would have liked a moment where the Doctor lamented the fact that her time with him turned Martha from a Dr. into a soldier. Seems like the sort of thing the Doctor would have been sad about.

My 2 cents. If anything, these episodes have made me REALLY hungry for the new stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:51 pm

Also-
My understanding of the Time Lords situation is that they can't just hop into their Tardises (?) and escape their deaths because of the time lock, or whatever, surrounding the events of the Time War. You can't get in or out without the kind of connection they create within the Master.
If that's the case, then how did that Dalek get in and rescue Davros?
I'm not asking to point out the plot hole. I'm genuinely curious if there is an explination
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:26 am

tjg wrote:
I like the idea of giving the new team a clean slate to start with, but I will be dissapointed if there isn't some overlap with these characters.

And I personally would have liked a moment where the Doctor lamented the fact that her time with him turned Martha from a Dr. into a soldier. Seems like the sort of thing the Doctor would have been sad about.

Well, he wasn't exactly beaming in that scene, was he? Though he was probably just appalled she ended up with Mickey.

And while it's been mostly cool how the RTD companions leave and come back, anybody miss the old days when a companion would leave and never be mentioned again? Ever?
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