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 The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!

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PostSubject: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:09 pm

Spoiler zone!!

So discuss!....I really am gob smacked, to think I've witnessed history. But I've also witnessed THE best Doctor depart from us.

WE LOVE YOU DAVID!

But still....bring on Series 5! Who knows, Matt might just beat David. Doubt it though...

Oh, for those who want spoilers, there's a clip on the BBC Doctor Who website!

DISCUSS!!

Jon
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:32 pm

Not the best in all of Who's 40-some-odd year run...

Crap... utter crap. The whole plot by the Master is utterly pointless and used to serve as just a method to meet a plot device, mind you a weak method... but it serves to wonder.... why?

Donna might as well have not been in it. Sort of pointless again to center some advertising points around a 2 minutes cameo? For as long as Rose was in the episode I'm surprised we didn't see her in the trailer.

The Time Lords were an awesome plot device that lasted a whole other two minutes.

The whole 'This is Your Life' ending with all the closure of the RTD supporting characters was fun. Once again proving that RTD can write some kick ass scenes but can't really write altogether.

The regeneration, that was fun, Matt ushered in the series with a laugh. The end of an era, the TARDIS is destroyed very symbolic.

But watching 60 minutes for a 12 minute payoff doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Here's hoping that Steven Moffat can breath some much needed life into this stagnant series.




AND... the Dalton Time Lord is Rassilon? What's up with that?
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:39 pm

wahhhhhhhhhhh- I need a tissue...
I had no mind of the closure ending- tennant will be sorely missed. I liked the whole rage against the dying of the light theme. It seemed very fitting. I'm an odd one out but I will miss RTD- I loved his quirkiness and humour and his brazen way of writing. From what little we saw of matt-and the preview...season 5 looks exciting...time will tell. I love moffat and I'm sure I will recover from my Tennant mourning by then...or not. What a great doctor.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:50 pm

I missed this season 5 preview? My download didn't have anything at the end of the credits except the new logo and 'Coming Spring of 2010.' or is this the preview that is blocked outside of the UK on the BBC website?
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:54 pm

there is a season 5 preview just up...see youtb
very exciting
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:02 pm

Thanks K9!
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:32 pm

What a blast! A lot of fun watching that. Not the greatest episode ever, but I knew it wasn't going to be. I actually thought it would be really bad and I was pleasantly surprised.

The Vinvochi were a hoot! (But don't call'em cacti.. that's racist!) And Wilf! Ah, Wilf. When I realized it was him knocking my heart broke. The Doctor's not going out in blaze of glory saving the Universe from Time Lords and Daleks, he's dying saving a single old man. He could have walked away and no one would have ever known. Just awesome.

Cheers to you, Doctor #10, thanks for the memories! What a ride it was. But time for the next one! Geronimo!!! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:35 pm

I loved it! Totally made up for any failings of Part One. Actually, I think Part One will play a lot better once viewed together. A lot of the seeds that seemed sort of chaotic or pointless in Part One made more sense in Part Two. I really liked where they took the "Master Race" thing and at least it made sense.

There were so many great moments. The return of the Time Lords and the coming of Gallifrey. The scene between The Master, The Doctor and Rassilon (!). Also, the Vinvocci were a lot of fun and they had a point! Yay!

I loved the scenes with Wilf too. It was great to see The Doctor feel sorry for himself... to succumb to the weaker part of him. His love of life in this incarnation was a great strength but also a weakness as well. But he overcame it in the end. Knowing Wilf was the one knocking... so sad.

Did I think the post-radiation bit took a little too long? Sure. It was pretty great though. Even though logically I thought it seemed to go on too long (shades of Return of the King) I still loved it. Little confused about Martha marrying Mickey though. Wasn't she meant to have married the Doctor from Last of the Time Lords? Or maybe they didn't state that expressly. I thought Sarah Jane's reaction was perfect as well. She was sad... but also happy. She knew enough to know it wasn't really the end.

I also loved the bit between Jack and Midshipman Frame. Something to set Jack back on the right path, perhaps? A respite from his misery? Loved it. The Rose thing was nice too, but was strangely the least-emotional for me.

But the capper was Donna's wedding. I just loved it to pieces. Its a bittersweet end for her. No doubt. But I'm glad they didn't fix her. It's heartbreaking what could of been, but she'll still be happy. That seems very "true" to how things are in real life.

I thought Matt Smith's first moments were fun. Is "Geronimo!" the new "Fantastic?" I like it.

One nagging thing that I'm sure MANY people will wonder... who was the other Time Lord detractor who had to hide their heads in shame? Someone we know? And who was The Woman? I don't think she was Rose anymore. I could buy Flavia. I mean, the theme that was supposed to be "Flavia singing to the Doctor through time" played at that moment. I don't know if they'll pick it up at all... but I would have thought it'd been a bit more explicitly defined. Oh well.

All in all. I'm very happy. I'm glad the Master got one last moment of rebellion. I wouldn't mind seeing Rassilon and the mystery woman again some day.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:04 am

Good stuff. I don't think it lived up to the setup, but it was still entertaining with some decent moments. I do wish Gallifrey had come back for good. I really want the Time Lords to be a permanent fixture in the series again.

I wasn't crazy about how long they dragged the Regeneration out for, but that's ok. I thought it was cool that Mickey and Martha hooked up. I do think the whole "creature cantina" scene could have been peppered with a few classic Who villains. It would have been cool to see a Zygon, Draconian or a Terileptil in there.

I agree Matt Smith's debut was cool, and its neat to see they came up with a reason as to why the TARDIS is going to look different. The first thing on #11's agenda will obviously be some remodeling.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:04 am

Well radiation took it's time before. Wasn't the 3rd Doctor lost in the vortex, dying at the end of Planet of the Spiders?
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:21 am

I thought Part 2 went a long way toward redeeming the lackluster Part 1. It wasn't perfect, but it had a lot of great little bits to offer. And I don't mind admitting that I got a bit misty when the Master simultaneously redeemed and avenged himself by blasting the bejeezus out of Rassilon.

Now, that said, I can't wait for the Moff Era to begin! Eccleston and Tennant were great, but RTD is clearly tapped-out. I'm so glad he brought back the franchise, and he gave us some great stories (he also gave us some not-so-great stories, but the same could be said for the original series). It's the right time for him to go.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:19 am

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The whole 'This is Your Life' ending with all the closure of the RTD supporting characters was fun. Once again proving that RTD can write some kick ass scenes but can't really write altogether.

While I am of course very grateful to R.T.D. for having brought the show back, I agree. I've always thought him a bit 'whipped' about bringing back certain characters and dropping the ball on the story in general...

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Here's hoping that Steven Moffat can breath some much needed life into this stagnant series.

So far I've REALLY enjoyed the episodes Moffat's written, I'm hoping he doesn't get so sentimental like RTD that he can't just let certain things go, and quite simply, keeps a great show going!

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I loved the scenes with Wilf too. It was great to see The Doctor feel sorry for himself... to succumb to the weaker part of him. His love of life in this incarnation was a great strength but also a weakness as well. But he overcame it in the end. Knowing Wilf was the one knocking... so sad.

That scene broke my hearts, it truly did! The moment I heard the knock I got all misty eyed!

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Good stuff. I don't think it lived up to the setup, but it was still entertaining with some decent moments. I do wish Gallifrey had come back for good. I really want the Time Lords to be a permanent fixture in the series again.

I totally agree! I am quite pissed at R.T.D. for doing that! While through various plot twists he could re-open that door, it's going to be a lot of work!

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I thought it was cool that Mickey and Martha hooked up.

What the heck happened to the Pediatrician she hooked up with?!

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I do think the whole "creature cantina" scene could have been peppered with a few classic Who villains. It would have been cool to see a Zygon, Draconian or a Terileptil in there.

HEH! It was neat, I wanted to see a lil band playing in the back though, just for fun!

I really hope The Master isn't stuck in a Time Lock now, he's still definitely my favorite DW villain of all time!

So we had a nice lil reunion setup at the end, but what about River Song!? WTF!!! I didn't expect them to "go into it", but I seriously expected a bit of a wave to us in regards to the whole thing. I suppose that story can be told via the Audiobooks, which is fine, but still...

Timothy Dalton as Rascillon.. WOW I have to say he did an amazing job, slobber/spit and all! I had my suspicions that was who the character might be, but still... I must say I'm QUITE surprised, considering the events of "The Five Doctors", why they'd even bother, unless they felt he would be a strong enough leader in War Times (unless he broke out somehow?).

All in all, PT 2 was still enjoyable, it was an emotional roller coaster for my girlfriend and I while watching. (She didn't want to watch it at all, a whole denial of David's going away!). Had some great scenes, some fun story moments, and a sadness w/ the end of that wonderful Doctor, I'm sure most everyone just adored. I must admit, a part of me hoped/prayed/yearned for the whole Matt Smith/storyline of knocking/everything just to be a red herring, RTD just fucking with us... but alas, it wasn't to be =/

Sorry for such a long post, I saw so much to reply to and had so much to say, I'll probably post more as I roll it around in my head later!
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:53 am

@memnoch
In regards to River Song... watch the season 5 trailer. :-)
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:43 am

Just got finished watching it, and I've got some really mixed feelings about this one. There's so much in it that affirms what Doctor Who is all about (the Doctor telling the Master to get out of the way because what he really needs to shoot is the thing generating the link to Gallifrey), so much that doesn't make sense (nukes being blown up within Earth's atmosphere with no consequence? the fourth Doctor can be killed by a fall from a more-or-less-stationary radio telescope but the tenth can survive a parachute-less skydive from a fast-moving spacecraft through a big glass skylight dome?), and so many huge new revelations (that the Time Lords made the Master who he is, intentionally - I'm sorry, but that's a gigantic new piece of mythology to drop into the picture) that my head is spinning.

I instantly liked Matt Smith, just as I instantly liked Tennant with nothing more to go on than "New teeth, that's weird!" and "BARCELONA!" Come to think of it, I've never met a Doctor I didn't like.

On the subject of the disappearance of Gallifrey: I have a feeling that's not as cut and dried as it would appear. I have a feeling that it's been spun off into some other corner of the universe. We might not hear from them for a while, but I have a feeling we will eventually... and when we do, I'll bet the Master is in charge. If you really think that's it for Gallifrey and the Master, you must also think the Master burned to death at the end of Planet Of Fire. When there's a story need for either or both, they'll resurface.

I'm a little disappointed nobody looked up in the sky, saw a bloody great planet barreling down on Earth, and said "Not again!" (in reference to the planets in the sky in The Stolen Earth).

And finally... on the subject of Rassilon. Ooh, I wish he hadn't said that word. As someone's already pointed out, if the Time Lords were willing to revive the quite-dead-and-digested Master to help fight the Time War (presumably if he was sucked into the Eye of Harmony in McGann's TARDIS, he got sucked through a dimensional vacuum cleaner hose into the Eye of Harmony on Gallifrey that feeds all the TARDISes, and could thus be plucked out and revived, like that one big juicy gumball that someone just had to retrieve through a vacuum cleaner bag... ick!), then it's entirely possible that they had already somehow revived Rassilon to lead them in the Time War.

On the flipside of that, my own personal interpretation of that reference is that it's metaphorical. The Doctor is clearly not pleased that the Time Lords are returning. Rassilon, the original Time Lord leader, proved to be rotten to the core, thus setting the template for so many Time Lords to follow. Sort of like someone blaming Christ for how Christianity turned out. Then again, maybe the literal reading - that the Master wasn't the only Time Lord nutjob to be revived - is scarier on the surface. My idea is more like something out of the NAs. Though I did like the creepy Gallifreyan seer woman - speaking of the NAs, she struck me as a relic hearkening back to the days of the Pythia and rampant superstition, and yet they're so desperate they've kept her around too, because at the end of the day, Time Lords just don't know how to fight/manage a war... they're so clueless they've turned to their equivalent of reading tea leaves.

All the cute callbacks at the end... I dunno. Very, very mixed feelings there. Great to see Martha and Mickey and especially Jack. And you know what, since we didn't have to fish her out of the alternate universe, I'll even give RTD a pass on bringing us Rose one more time (especially since her mum was with her - sorry, I've got a bit of a thing for Camille Coduri). The Sarah Jane/Luke thing was my favorite - that was almost a gut punch for me. And I knew, about 60 seconds before he appeared, that the Ood would be standing there. Not like that was really hard to guess. I suppose all the callbacks are more emotionally satisfying than a bunch of disembodied talking heads whirling around and going "You mustn't die, Doctor!", but I felt the whole predicting-a-great-year-for-Rose bit was a little too self-congratulatory. And incredibly dangerous if you think about it for even a second - very irresponsible for even introducing the possibility for Rose to see this total stranger changing his face, months before she'd even met the ninth Doctor, if he'd collapsed and couldn't hold back the inevitable any longer. File that away with the amazing non-lethal skydive and all those nukes blowing up over the ocean with no ill effects, I guess.

Overall, though, it was quite a rush... though the plot holes bugged me. It's interesting to see if folks who have panned the McGann movie are going to issue a free pass to EOTp2. If nothing else, it confirms the feeling I had at the end of Journey's End that RTD picked a good time to bow out. I give him nothing but praise for bringing back the best show in the world and making it a monster hit, and creating spinoffs that are every bit as good. And by and large, I've generally enjoyed most of it. But a strong vein of self-indulgence has crept into the show; best that he go out relatively close to being on top, rather than watching it descend into muddled self-parody, which JN-T nearly accomplished (though I also respect the man and his hard work). The time is right for Davies to move on, and I almost wish I had my own time machine so I could fast-forward to the first season under Moffat's watch.

In any case, love it or hate it (or, in my case, love bits of it and hate bits of it), Doctor Who has survived far, far worse outings than this and I think we all know it. It may be a self-indulgent mess, but EOTp2 doesn't - and didn't - break the show.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:29 am

The episodes certainly made more sense after seeing part 2. But all of it seemed VERY pointless. They might as well have just left the Master out of it completely.

Two question for the Master is, where did he go at the end and has he turned kinda good? HE CAN'T BE GOOD! It would just ruin his character.

Loved the Time Lords. Although I really wished they would have remained "Good". That's just how I wanted to think of them, this fantastic species that are like gods. But no....RTD messes that all up, like David Tennant's last episode!

The regeneration didn't make me cry. I held it together, some how. But I am very sad he's leaving us. Yet Matt seems to be rather good, especially after seeing his clip. So its not all bad news!

I'm looking forward to Series 5 now! Its really quite a build, and after seeing episodes like "The Doctors Daughter", I'm really happy Steven is taking over!

BRING ON 2010!!!

Jon
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:40 am

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But a strong vein of self-indulgence has crept into the show

I think you nailed it right there. Whenever the series hit a low point for me, that sentence right there epitomizes what happened. Not that the lows were that low. With the exception of the Doctor-lite stories, I can find something emmensely enjoyable about every episode. But the mastubatory (please excuse the word) trends that RTD slipped into some of the more pivotal stories are what bothered me the most.

When I say that this episode was a little disappointing, it should be qualified by the fact that these two episodes were my most anticipated thing on TV in well... since we knew it was going to be Tennant's last. Its impossible to live up to that kind of hype.

On a side note... I love what I'm seeing in the trailer for Series 5. I've only watched it twice, and both times on a player that didn't pause well, but there's some great stuff in there. Daleks, natch, Weeping Angels (didn't Rassilon refer to the two detractors on the Council as weeping angels?), and some unfamiliar, but interesting looking characters. I'm really excited for what's to come.

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Loved the Time Lords. Although I really wished they would have remained "Good".

Funny, I've never thought of the Time Lords as good. Maybe not evil in the sense that The Master is, but definitely not good.

Edit:

Ok, I just watched the trailer with a pausable player. Two things struck me as weird. One, there's a Dalek wearing an ammo belt! Two, Magpie Electronics is in the background of one shot. That better not be a sequel to Idiot's Lantern! Mad


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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:16 am

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Funny, I've never thought of the Time Lords as good. Maybe not evil in the sense that The Master is, but definitely not good.

Same here. They have the power to make the universe a better place, but they've always remained aloof and indifferent...inaction in the face of evil is, in my opinion (and that of our beloved Doctor) tantamount to evil itself.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:59 pm

I loved it. Sure, there were some massive plot holes and tons of unnecessary bits - but it's the finale to the RTD era, it would have felt out of place without them (I'm not being sarcastic here). My favorite aspect was the RTD got to "raise the stakes" to ridiculous levels but managed to keep the important bits smaller and more personal. Even the 5 minutes of fanservice visiting everyone were balanced with him regenerating all alone (a first, I believe) and showing his fear. A great ending for RTD and Tennant and I great point for Moffat and Smith to try something new.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:01 pm

Hee, hee, the timelord witch forseeing the future was almost a dead ringer for the witch from The Ribos Operation. Not bad that Gallifrey would have such a person in time of war, just tough not to think that the Graf Vinda-K was going to storm in at any minute.

There appeared to be no reason to name Dalton's President as Rassilon. He could ave remained a nameless Lord President who merely wanted out of the timelock. Or they could have actually used Rassilon and all his timelord mythology. They just seemd to have thrown the name in without a care.

It also would have been nice for Tennant to have actually been able to save his people instead of tossing them back into "hell". But I suppose there is room for Rassilon and the Master to come back.

And we now can blame the Time War for why the Master is so stark-mad crazy in the new series. Classic Delgado can be all sauve (and never mention drums) and it's not until the Time War that his timeline is manipulated and he's just a nutter. Hopefully future "Masters" can scale things back and be a bit more charming and manipulative.

Final opinion, it was okay but I'm ready for stories on a smaller scale. The smallest scenes once again seemed to work the best. Yet another RTD outing with all the past companions, but not as sickly cheesy as the last season finale. I'm ready for the next series.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:58 pm

Did anyone win Part 2 bingo?
It was better than part one.
I wish the Judoon was named Alonso. Jack could've made a joke about being horny.
The problem was we still don't understand the Time War. The Galifrians were mostly aloof and ineffectual in the classic series, so there return doesn't hold much menace. We didn't see them commit any atrocities, so it's hard to believe the Doctor when he says they're worse than the daleks. Couldn't they have ascended to pure thought without stoping all of time? Then when they get to Earth, they just stand in front of a white background and do nothing until the reset button is hit.
The Time Lords making the Master crazy as a kid still doesn't make sense. He never raved about drums in the classic series.
Maybe Rassilon is a common name on Galifrey, like Tom?
It'd be funny if the Doctor gave Donna a losing ticket.
The regeneration took way too long. I wish he would've smiled when popping up to all the cameos.
The interaction with Wilf was great.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:32 am

Evil Monkey Pope wrote:

The problem was we still don't understand the Time War. The Galifrians were mostly aloof and ineffectual in the classic series, so there return doesn't hold much menace. We didn't see them commit any atrocities, so it's hard to believe the Doctor when he says they're worse than the daleks.

Well, it's easy to believe for me. The Doctor said it plain as day, and he certainly wouldn't have reacted to their return that way or said what he said if it wasn't true. And remember, it's not like the Time Lords have had a lot of fleshing out on the show. We have seen very little of them.

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Couldn't they have ascended to pure thought without stoping all of time?

Apparently not.

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Then when they get to Earth, they just stand in front of a white background and do nothing until the reset button is hit.

Heh, true.

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The Time Lords making the Master crazy as a kid still doesn't make sense. He never raved about drums in the classic series.

He never raved about it prior to his Yana incarnation because it wasn't always as "loud". It was stated in the show that it got worse over time.

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Maybe Rassilon is a common name on Galifrey, like Tom?

They wouldn't name the character Rassilon if it wasn't the Rassilon.

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The regeneration took way too long.

Yeah, it did take longer than usual. perhaps it was because the Doctor was resisting.

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The interaction with Wilf was great.
Indeed. :doc10:
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:10 am

If you want the reference to Rassilon explained away, perhaps in Time Lord society the name can be used like "Judas" is on earth...so the Doctor wasn't saying he was the actual Rassilon, but accusing him of ultimate betrayal.

Yes, it's a stretch, but so was Wilf and Mr. Greengenes shooting down every one of those missiles.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:09 am

"Wilfred....it would be my honor."

I pretty much lost it right then. Sad
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:12 am

But he met Rassilon in "The Five Doctors," and Rassilon seemed like a pretty cool dude! I hated that -- it was like Davies just picked the first Time Lord that came to mind. Even Borusa would've made more sense, and Borusa's supposed to be a face chilling on the side of Rassilon's tomb.

Ah well.

I kinda liked the second half, but I don't think it did anything to redeem the first -- if anything, it just highlighted how pointless the first part was, since the "Master" race was mostly underutilized and the sound triangulation thing turned out to be totally unnecessary. It wasn't even that good in and of itself, but the Doctor's "reward" was pretty cool... until it got to the Ood singing. By that point I was like ENOUGH ALREADY -- REGENERATE!

Didn't like Matt Smith at all, but it's not like he did that much of anything. The whole "I'm a girl" thing was stupid -- Smith is a pretty ugly dude, but he'd be an absolutely hideous girl -- and I hate "geronimo!" as a catchphrase. And is it me, or is the Doctor's preoccupation with not being ginger a touch offensive?
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CJSchmidt
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time, Part Two - For those who HAVE seen it!   Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:56 am

@The 2nd Doctor Roberts
In Confidential RTD very clearly names Dalton's character as Rassilon. Well worth watching if you get the chance.

I'm really glad they didn't go with the really emotional version of his last words - I may have needed therapy afterwards.

As much as people have complained about the 10 minute regeneration, it was a much better option than a crazy, over the top, standard RTD finale.
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