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 The End of Time

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CJSchmidt
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:01 pm

tegan4 wrote:
But, if in fact it's a 'resurrection' glove, why/how could he use it to destroy the female Time Lord?!

We don't know what it was for or what it was actually called. Torchwood just managed to make it bring people back for a minute, so they called it that. Maybe one hand gives life and one takes it away? Wouldn't that be poetic...

I think I would have been ok with the episode if it hadn't been for the "everyone is the Master" business. He should have walked out of the ring totally healed and evil as ever. Killed everyone in the room (Doc and Wilf excluded) and laughed maniacally as the camera pulled back to Gallifrey.

I guess the real question is: Will the Time Lords stick around to pester 11 or will 10 be forced to make the same decision he did in the Time War to put everything right again?
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jonwes
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:05 pm

Personally, I'm still hoping Dalton is Omega. If the Time Lords resurrected the Master for the Time War, they might have resurrected Omega too out of desperation. From the first time we saw Dalton in the Time Lord get up I instantly thought of Omega. His staff even kind of reminded me of Omega. That way the thing on his arm could be the Hand of Omega. I think that would be pretty awesome.

Also, about the woman in the church and on the TV.... anyone thinking it's Rose? I only say that because she's appearing in a similar way to the way Rose did throughout series 4 and in the series 4's finale.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:01 pm

Quote :
I guess the real question is: Will the Time Lords stick around to pester 11

I really hope so. Besides adding a great new element to the series, I would really like to see the show explore Time Lord society and culture more.

I watched this episode again today along with a few other episodes from Series 4 and yeah, I gotta say Wilf is one of the best things to hit Doctor Who since its return. He's just such an endearing character and I love that he got so much face time in this one, especially since I wasn't at all expecting it.

And I really don't have a problem with the Master replicating himself into a race. Its just the kind of goofy schlock that the show needs to remember its roots.
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Evil Monkey Pope
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:54 pm

I actually didn't mind the Master cloning himself. I like John Simm's kooky Master. I'm thinking that the gate would heal entire planets based on one template but the master jiggered to clone him exactly instead of just giving the whole world an extra heart. It's a perfect crazy idea to wipe out the Doctor's precious humans.
What bothered me is how ridiculous they handled it. I don't think RTD understands that Doctor Who can be funny without be ridiculously stupid. There was no need to have everybody shake there head back and forth at high speeds for several minutes to accomplish it. It looked cheap and spoiled the effect. Something much more subdued would've worked better, like a flash and then everyone is instantly the Master. the Classic series often had bad special effects due to budget and technology, but hey wouldn't go out of its way to make something look horrid.
My biggest complaint was the Master's nonsensical resurrection and lots of foreshadowing dialogue that was hammy filler instead of advancing the story or characters.
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CJSchmidt
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:11 am

Ok. I've gone completely off the deep end.

I re-edited the last 5 minutes of The End of Time Part 1 to remove the bits I thought were silly or unnecessary. It's amazing how often less is more.

I'd love to hear what you guys think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URhrpxGmdns

Here's one that is a lot more subtle and keeps all the important stuff intact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKWKAMijgKk


Last edited by CJSchmidt on Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:16 am

Much better!
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jonwes
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:56 am

Yes, well that sort of works. Obviously you could do with a SHORT effect of some kind of people turning into the Master to smooth that over a bit but overall very nice. I do have to say one thing I'm over are the newscasters and the people 'round the world being show as they are affected by whatever plot the villain in the show has cooked up. At one point it gave it scale but now it feels a little tired.

I didn't mind the Obama stuff. Sounds like they did it for a laugh based on the commentary and I thought it was fine, but I think you've shown how it wasn't really necessary. I REALLY liked that you eliminated some footage of the various Masters. I thought it went on a bit. I just wanted to scream "I get it, I get it!" at the screen. Although you do have to wonder if EVERYONE would get it. You have the special effect of the wave going around the Earth... but it doesn't quite have the same impact as seeing the various faces. So a little more of that wouldn't be bad... just not as much as we got in the original version.
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CJSchmidt
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:09 am

I left out the transformations intentionally. Not knowing what he just did seemed more frightening than shaky faces and John Simms waving at the camera. The Master just did something really horrible and the Doctor couldn't stop it. Your imagination can always beat CG and drawn out exposition.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:49 am

Newer version with less artifacts, smoother transitions, and less lightning hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URhrpxGmdns
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:59 am

Haha, that was indeed a bit better -- I liked that you removed all that crazy spitting at the end! I still could've done without Simm's stubbly green face, though -- given how much that was shown in the episode, I seriously wonder how much time all of those instances combined would take up.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:21 am

jonwes wrote:

That way the thing on his arm could be the Hand of Omega. I think that would be pretty awesome.


The Hand of Omega was a stellar manipulator and the size of a person, so it now being a small gun glove wouldn't make sense.
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jonwes
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:00 am

Drathro wrote:
jonwes wrote:

That way the thing on his arm could be the Hand of Omega. I think that would be pretty awesome.


The Hand of Omega was a stellar manipulator and the size of a person, so it now being a small gun glove wouldn't make sense.

Why not? Technology moves on. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:09 pm

jonwes wrote:
Personally, I'm still hoping Dalton is Omega. If the Time Lords resurrected the Master for the Time War, they might have resurrected Omega too out of desperation. From the first time we saw Dalton in the Time Lord get up I instantly thought of Omega. His staff even kind of reminded me of Omega. That way the thing on his arm could be the Hand of Omega. I think that would be pretty awesome.

Also, about the woman in the church and on the TV.... anyone thinking it's Rose? I only say that because she's appearing in a similar way to the way Rose did throughout series 4 and in the series 4's finale.

I dunno about the resurrection of Omega. They would of course have had the master's biological data stored, they were an established Time Lord society then. Even though said established society had a sort of dealing with him later on (hence the Three Doctors episode), I kind of doubt they had it. And why would they? I know the Master's insane and all, but it was a different kind of insanity to have, as a warrior. Omega's insanity was different (or so I see it). He didn't really seem the right type to res (if they even could).

Oh god, i so hope it isn't Rose, no offense to you fans out there, but I'd be so disappointed in his proverbial beating of the dead horse.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:26 pm

CJSchmidt wrote:
tegan4 wrote:
But, if in fact it's a 'resurrection' glove, why/how could he use it to destroy the female Time Lord?!

We don't know what it was for or what it was actually called. Torchwood just managed to make it bring people back for a minute, so they called it that. Maybe one hand gives life and one takes it away? Wouldn't that be poetic...

I think I would have been ok with the episode if it hadn't been for the "everyone is the Master" business. He should have walked out of the ring totally healed and evil as ever. Killed everyone in the room (Doc and Wilf excluded) and laughed maniacally as the camera pulled back to Gallifrey.

I guess the real question is: Will the Time Lords stick around to pester 11 or will 10 be forced to make the same decision he did in the Time War to put everything right again?

Don't forget, they could be cheap and re-using a prop! It COULD be completely unrelated!

I really hope the Time Lords don't end up being all evil and he has to do something harsh to them. It would be nice if he just has to deal with SOME of them and the rest are left to exist and return to the status quo.

Yeah, the Master is everyone was kind of odd, I'd wondered if it was an extension of his previous plan to re-invent the Time Lords as with the spheres. Except in a godlike in his own image kind of way. While of course, at the same time, hurting the Doctor so.

At least RTD had the taste not to show Simm's face "being born" from a pregnant woman, I was halfway waiting for a screaming baby to face shake into the Master....
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:37 pm

memnoch wrote:
At least RTD had the taste not to show Simm's face "being born" from a pregnant woman, I was halfway waiting for a screaming baby to face shake into the Master....

BLEACH BLEACH!!!!!!!! I NEED BLEACH FOR MY MIND'S EYE!!!!!! AAAAARRRRGGHHHHHHHH affraid cyclops affraid
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Vicki
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:20 pm

memnoch wrote:

At least RTD had the taste not to show Simm's face "being born" from a pregnant woman, I was halfway waiting for a screaming baby to face shake into the Master....

LOL!!! That would have been HILARIOUS!!! Er, that is tasteless, yeah, that's what I meant... lol!
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Evil Monkey Pope
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:38 pm

Part 2 bingo
http://io9.com/5436831/play-along-at-home-doctor-who-end-of-time-bingo-cards
http://sharpesopinion.co.uk/2009/12/doctor-who-bingo-it-is-returning-edition,/
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:21 pm

evil monkey pope- oh that is too funny- love this!!!!!
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CJSchmidt
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:19 pm

We're SO playing that this weekend!

Here's an edited version of the finale that doesn't cut as much content, but trims some of the more awkward long shots and speeds things up. What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKWKAMijgKk
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:57 pm

yeah that clip shortens it up a bit... not bad.

Here is another wild theory to put on the bingo card- not a regeneration but a rebirth of the doctor...to perpetuate the life of the character- infinity.

The other blog theory is that matt will be doc 1 but I do not believe this- how do they explain picts of matt in 10's battered suit?
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:34 am

I haven't seen anyone suggest that Dalton will be revealed to be Rassilon. Does no one favor the big guy anymore? Or all we all Rassiloned out? The War Chief would be another obscure character that RTD could completely reinvent or even kill without too much fan hate. But my bet is that he'll be somebody new just to expand the Time Lord mythos.

I still can't figure out how the Master can have any kind of big plan. He's brought back to life by the ring, goes even more crazy than usual due to unforseen circumstances by his wife (women!), and then is unexpectedly captured and handed an alien gizmo. He must be just playing this all by ear.

Well, only a handfull of hours and the speculation will be over. Arrow
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:54 am

I think the Master is definitely playing it by ear. Remember, in the narration they say (while the Master is stooped in the dramatically lit pipe-thing gnawing on a bone) that he doesn't know the glory that will await him.
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:10 am

I think Dalton will be revealed to be.... an entirely new character! And the woman he shot? New. The Time Lords around him? All new.

Just a hunch, but I doubt we'll see Omega, Rassilon, Romana, The Valeyard, Rani, Morbius, or anyone else. I'm expecting Rassilon to be mentioned once. Maybe twice, but that's it.

I'm happy with some new crazy Time Lord leader who perhaps started the Time War, and perhaps the Doctor ended it the way he did to stop HIM, not the Daleks. I just hope it's not another idiot "seeking immortality" (booming laughter).
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:15 am

What if the Time Lords allow the newly healed Master back into their society and the Doctor becomes a fugitive for his 11th regeneration? That would keep them at arms length and could preserve the mystery and still keep the Doctor flying solo. Gallifrey exists - but it's no longer the place he knew and the only way he'll see it is if he's put to trial.

I love playing guess the story!
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PostSubject: Re: The End of Time   Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:13 am

rdks wrote:
I think Dalton will be revealed to be.... an entirely new character! And the woman he shot? New. The Time Lords around him? All new.

Just a hunch, but I doubt we'll see Omega, Rassilon, Romana, The Valeyard, Rani, Morbius, or anyone else. I'm expecting Rassilon to be mentioned once. Maybe twice, but that's it.


I actually think you're right. If for no other reason then story logistics. It seems like it might be a little confusing if they start trying to reintroduce old characters.
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