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mysterylad
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PostSubject: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:45 am

EDIT: This thread was split off from the 11th Doctor Outfit thread to keep things marginally on-topic and coherent. - CJ

I'm keeping an open mind regarding Matt Smith (Peter Davison was widely dismissed as being too young for the role, yet he was excellent!), but I do hope the 12th Doctor is older...someone like Bill Nighy or Anthony Stewart Head would be perfect. I kind of miss the paternal aspects of the character's early incarnations, and it would be nice to see that again.

Back on topic, though, I'm still pretty psyched about the new season, and my gut tells me the changes are going to be for the better.
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CJSchmidt
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:01 am

The Doctor after Matt Smith will have to deal with the 12 regeneration limit (since 10 used up two) and that probably means the return of Gallifrey/Time Lords in some fashion (if we don't see it this year). As far as the character knows, it's his final incarnation - I they'd have to find an older mature actor for that part.
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:18 am

Was the quasi-regeneration by #10 considered one of his regenerations? I was under the impression that question was still unresolved.
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:43 am

CJSchmidt wrote:
The Doctor after Matt Smith will have to deal with the 12 regeneration limit (since 10 used up two) and that probably means the return of Gallifrey/Time Lords in some fashion (if we don't see it this year). As far as the character knows, it's his final incarnation - I they'd have to find an older mature actor for that part.

Hugh Bonneville alien
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CJSchmidt
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:25 pm

They never clearly say. Whether or not it's considered a real regeneration will most likely depend on the popularity of the show by the time we get to Doc 12.
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:16 pm

mysterylad wrote:
I'm keeping an open mind regarding Matt Smith (Peter Davison was widely dismissed as being too young for the role, yet he was excellent!), but I do hope the 12th Doctor is older...someone like Bill Nighy or Anthony Stewart Head would be perfect. I kind of miss the paternal aspects of the character's early incarnations, and it would be nice to see that again.

Back on topic, though, I'm still pretty psyched about the new season, and my gut tells me the changes are going to be for the better.

i personally would love to see tony head, even if he was already a villian, but i bet some people would complain.lol
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:47 pm

Hey, it worked for Colin Baker!

OK, so it didn't exactly "work" for him, but at least it didn't have anything to do with his previous appearance on the show... Smile
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:28 pm

CJSchmidt wrote:
The Doctor after Matt Smith will have to deal with the 12 regeneration limit (since 10 used up two) and that probably means the return of Gallifrey/Time Lords in some fashion (if we don't see it this year). As far as the character knows, it's his final incarnation - I they'd have to find an older mature actor for that part.

CJSchmidt wrote:
They never clearly say. Whether or not it's considered a real regeneration will most likely depend on the popularity of the show by the time we get to Doc 12.

RTD...we can thank him for making it not really matter. The time lords managed to resurrect the Master just for their own purposes. So one could argue the point that the rule of 12 was a decision made by Rasilion that has now gone the way of the time lords.

12 came from the deadly assasin and the Doctor states in the brain of morbius that his people chose not to live forever as death is the price of progress. Of course I would add to that there was the idea that other time lords would always be here as keepers of time and guardians. With them gone the Doctor truly becomes the only one who can see the alternate timelines and know the right path to keep us on. In his lonely role as Earth's protector he could easily decide to go past twelve, as easily as the Master chose to not regenerate.
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:32 am

I always liked the idea that Time Lords were imbued with enough energy to fuel 12 regenerations. If the Time Lords choose to, they could give certain members a "fill up" to extend their regeneration batteries with up to 12 more cycles. They could live forever, but their society has decided they only get one tank of gas.

They could choose to just keep going with a throwaway line that sort of solves it, but I can't believe they'd ignore a chance at such an epic story line.

Also, would the Doctor actively choose to live forever?
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:17 pm

I could actually see the Doctor choosing to live forever. As he once said to the Time Lords (at his own trial, no less)...

"While you have been content merely to observe the evil in the galaxy I have been fighting against it!...All these evils I have fought while you have done nothing but observe. True, I am guilty of interference, just as you are guilty of failing to use your great powers to help those in need!"

I think the Doctor sees this as his responsibility: that as long as he has the ability to make a difference in the universe, he must continue to do so...because nobody else will. Even when they were alive, the Time Lords avoided using their vast power for good, and now that they're gone, the Doctor is needed more than ever.

If given the opportunity to go on living forever and keep fighting the good fight, I think he would.
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:19 am

anybody think they'll pull a buffy? let him have his 12 regenerations, and then die for a prolonged period of time. only to be resurrected in some fashion, not of his choosing, and have a fresh set of 12 new regenerations? if the show is still the drama it is now, it could deal with him being angry he was resurrected without his wishes. i think buffy pulled that off reasonably well, but the seasons after her death paled to the episode where she actually died sacrificing herself.
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:16 pm

Well, since the last of ten's run has not ran, er, aired yet. At the moment there is only one true time lord (descendant) left in the series. The Doctor's daughter. I could see a story arc where they try to hold true to the 12 regenerations by ending his 12th with some giant sacrifice that results in him being pulled into the eye to save the universe and almost obliterates the tardis leaving only the eye intact. As we sit in disbelief and companion x in total shock that he will not be regenerating, Jenny appears too late to stop him, but not ready to lose him.

You could then begin a storyline where Jenny brings him back from the eye by trying to track down scattered pieces of galifreyan history from the time war that help her understand how they brought back the master. After all, the Daleks were able to hideout in a voidship with timelord technology, whose to say there isn't more out there. Great kicker would be accidently bringing back both the Doctor and the Master in the process. And I like the Buffy angle, so you can toss that in with him being angry because his return has unleashed the Master again.

Of course at the end of the day the part that will decide it is going to be Moffat's handling. Since he is currently deciding the Doctor's ultimate fate. Will he handle things in more of a traditional who or an RTD view, or a departure from both or that mixes both? As they say, only time will tale.
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:46 pm

Do you think at some point the BBC would get involved with the direction things would go based on their vested interest?
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:24 pm

I hope so for the sake of the fans, but considering involvement for them in the past has meant cancelling the show to save it from itself, and then backing the fox movie* I'm not sure if they are the answer to the question.



*I believe I'm on record for saying so already, but to clarify I actually enjoyed the movie. Parts were hokey, but the story line was fine and I truly enjoyed McGann's take on the doctor. And yes, I believe the half human thing was a joke!
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:27 am

bret_owen99 wrote:
anybody think they'll pull a buffy? let him have his 12 regenerations, and then die for a prolonged period of time. only to be resurrected in some fashion, not of his choosing, and have a fresh set of 12 new regenerations? if the show is still the drama it is now, it could deal with him being angry he was resurrected without his wishes. i think buffy pulled that off reasonably well, but the seasons after her death paled to the episode where she actually died sacrificing herself.

thats a great idea and it fits really well with the character of the doctor, and it would relieve him of the burden of being a meglo maniac that wanted to live forever. lets just get joss whedon to write a season. that would be to good to be true. joss and tim minear, drew goddard, david fury, and jane espenson. i'm in love with this idea.
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:29 am

The only problem is that Buffy is/was very popular in the UK. I'm sure it could be make it original with enough twists and timey-whimey mumbo jumbo, but you'd still have the hard core sci-fi fans calling rip-off.
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:40 pm

well, the show could take a couple year hiatus(not like the "couple years" during the mccoy to mcgann), before casting a new doctor, and writing his return. they could even do a 2-hour return type tv movie event(not like the mcgann movie). tennant and rtd even discussed this on one of the doctor who confidentials, how the show came back stronger than before, and one day someone else would revive it the same way. it was a once in a lifetime shot that the classic show lasted as long as it did consecutively. then there was the tv movie(i blame fox for that one), then the 2005 revival. who's to say that in a couple of years time the show won't go into another prolonged hiatus(not like the holiday specials we are getting now). they could have a bigger better revival than 'rose'(not that i'm complaining, still one of my favorite new episodes, just wish they would have come out and said auton at some point).
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:15 pm

They could always pull a Ben Reilly/Peter Parker clone story. This was the story where they basically said the Peter Parker who was Spider-man all these years was nothing but a clone of the original.
This would be where 9 was actuallya clone of the doctor imbibed with all his personalities from the vortex or eye or something therefore he gets a full new 12, with 9= 1,10=2...OR he was a timelord who voluteers to replace his personality with the doctor via a watch switch over type deal to become a new doctor! The real Doctor perhaps having to use all he regens to fight in the time war, this other timelord realizes the universe needs 'the Doctor'.
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:56 am

I alluded to this earlier, but the Doctor refered to the choice not to live forever in the Brain of Morbius. Shame on me for not thinking more on this episode. This was also where we learned that the time lords share the elixir of life with the Sisterhood of Karn, but only in rare instances do they use it. The reason could easily be that since it's properties bring renewal to the user, they would renew a time lords regeneration cycle. Hello Deus Ex Machina! So let's take the regeneration thing into a prime oppurtunity for something not seen in this series...the valeyard!

The Doctors supposed 13th persona come to take his revenge for losing his chance to be made real, poisons the 12th doctor who knows that this would be his end and so the search for the now lost planet of karn begins. Moved during the time war in a tactical move by Davros, and it's location now lost. Of course the whole thing was a plan for the valeyard to take the potion and reap the benefits of the renewed cycle after forcing the doctor to regenerate. His plan enlists the return of the master whom he has promised to share the elixir with, and whom he convinces to bring him into existence. This would be a great storyline to air over a couple of movie length events, spread out much like they are doing now.

As to how you bring out the valeyard, he was last seen in the matrix, the keeper of records for the timelords. Surely the doctor would have tried to salvage the matrix in the Tardis knowing that he was about to end the time lords existence to end the time war.
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:07 pm

That sounds like a fun story, but it's so connected to so many esoteric continuity threads from the classic series that it would never get made. I could see it being done as a novel or an audio, but not on TV.
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:10 pm

In today's Attention Deficet Disorder world-I give Who a year by year life. The recession is tough out there and shows that cost money, no matter how successful- can be replaced for cheaper reality shows. Take Primeval as an example. I hope this will never happen- but there are so many distractions out there and the only way to survive is to constantly reinvent yourself. I am looking forward to the new who, and wish for many years to come....
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:51 pm

I'd say that's probably true for many shows, but Doctor Who doesn't have to stand as just a TV show. It's also a collectable DVD series, book series, comic series, toy line, etc etc. It's a huge export too (the show and its merch). The BBC is also funded by the people and Doctor Who is popular and family-friendly. A lot of things would have to go wrong for Who to disappear again.

I think we'll see many more years of full series. If the ratings start to hurt it will probably lead to years like this one (with a handful of specials) before it would go on a full hiatus.
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:17 pm

Doctor Who is a FREAKIN' INSTITUTION!!! I think children in the UK would recognize Rose and The Doctor quicker than they would Queen Victoria or Winston Churchill
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:31 pm

CJSchmidt wrote:
The BBC is also funded by the people and Doctor Who is popular and family-friendly. A lot of things would have to go wrong for Who to disappear again.

So, is the majority new who fans or classic who fans?

If it's new, then the thought of it lasting for years doesn't seem that plausible, based simply on trends and the way people follow them. (how's your myspace page? When's the last time you icq'd? Anybody watched the latest South Park eps?) New who, with no real knowledge of the regen history only knowing that he regens before dying, and therefore it could go on forever, if it keeps them happy.

If it's classic, then you're looking at people who tend to view it with a little bit of nostalgia and insult when classic ties are glossed over or screwed up. So with their view would they accept the doctor going beyond 12 or view it as sacrilege?
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PostSubject: Re: 12 Regeneration Discussion (Split from outfit thread)   Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:56 pm

greg, i'm both. however, i'm also a realist. i view the glass half empty. if things work out, hey, i'm the first one happy. the original series lasted longer than any other scifi/any other genre of tv show consecutively. the new series(by rtd) has lasted around 5 years(i'm counting the current specials). the new new series(by moffat) is starting on the 6th. most modern day tv shows only last 6 seasons(7 or more if they are lucky). look at shows like stargate. sg-1 lasted 10 years, but atlantis only lasted 5(and they cancelled that so they can start a new show, which i don't give 3 years). i know those are different shows, and not the same show like doctor who, but i see the classic, the new, and the new new as 3 different shows(not counting the tv movie which was only once, even though mcgann was brilliant). i can go on and on with lists like that. buffy lasted 7 years, angel only 5. the original star trek lasted a long time(if you count the movie years), tng lasted 7 i believe, then there was ds9, voyager, and it winded down tot he short lived enterprise(the only thing worse than voyager). then, on everyone's minds is the fact that primeval just got cancelled, and who know's if torchwood is coming back, and if so, what cast members are coming back.
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