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 S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)

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Rate S8E12: Death in Heaven
Fantastic!
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Good
19%
 19% [ 7 ]
Okay...
22%
 22% [ 8 ]
Bad.
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Awful!
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Total Votes : 37
 

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Scary
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:09 pm

Rogue wrote:
The 2nd Doctor Roberts wrote:
There goes my theory that Missy was going to regenerate into Jacobi at the end of this episode.

I thought it was revealed that the Jacobi Master was human since he was a boy... like the Master turned himself into a kid or something when he used the chameleon arch, then aged into Jacobi.  Been a while since I watched those last three Series 3 episodes, though.

As Ron said, I don't think he actually became a child. He said he was found as a child with the watch "on the coast of the Silver Devastation," but I've always taken that to be what his human mind thought his life was like. Just like when the Doctor went human, he believed he had parents and had grown up in Ireland and all sorts of back-story that never actually happened. So I don't think it was ever intended to mean that he was actually a child in that incarnation.

I don't think Time Lords can go from being an adult to a child anyway. When River died as a child, her next incarnation was still a child, and when she died as an adult she regenerated into an adult. Then again, a Time Lord has just regenerated gender so who knows...



The 2nd Doctor Roberts wrote:
Nope, turns out it's his reaction of disgust at having been trolled by Scary.

I thought it was odd the BBC were ready to "canonize" Eric Roberts.

There goes my theory that Missy was going to regenerate into Jacobi at the end of this episode.

Sorry! Razz

Although that couldn't have happened anyway, since the Yana Master definitely comes before Missy. Yana was the incarnation of the Master during the Time War. He said in the phone call scene in 'Sound of Drums' that he ran from the Dalek Emperor when he took control of the cruciform and turned himself human in order to hide, aka Professor Yana.

Missy then says in 'Dark Water' that she's the Time Lord he "left for dead" and also says "Did you think I'd never find my way back?" clearly referring to, or at least it's the most logical explanation, the Doctor not saving the Master from the Time War at the end of 'The End of Time Part 2'. So clearly Yana was pre-Time-War and during the Time War, and Missy is post-Time-War.

As for Roberts, surely there is no logical argument to say that the TVM or the Roberts Master are not canon? The 8th Doctor is definitely canon obviously, and clips from the TVM have been used in Who before (for example, the "No sir! All THIRTEEN!" scene from 'Day of the Doctor'). The TVM must be canon... scratch
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:14 pm



I thought in the Time of the Doctor he changed history by not using the moment and doing that freezing pocket universe thing.  So were not really clear on what effect his change had on events or the master.  At the end of end of time the Master Saved 10 and actually did a nice thing.  I watch this show week to week and if you try to analyze things or get inside moffats head you'll go crazy, nuts, insane, bonzo, no longer in possession of ones faculties, three fries short of a Happy Meal, wacko! Colonel Jack O'neill Stargate SG1
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:52 am

The Doctor didn't change anything. He never destroyed Gallifrey or the Daleks. What we saw transpire in DotD is always what transpired.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:17 pm

Indeed, 'Day of the Doctor' changes nothing that happened in 'The End of Time'. Since both were set on the last day of the Time War though and the Doctor is mentioned in 'The End of Time' to have possession of the Moment which we actually see in 'Day', both 'Day' and 'End' must have been happening at the same time. Perhaps Gallifrey was pulled through to our solar system whilst the War Doctor had been taken to Queen Elizabeth's time to meet the 10th and 11th which is why the War Doc never experiences Gallifrey being moved around, and then the 10th Doctor in 'The End of Time' sends Gallifrey back into the Time War just before the Daleks turn up for their invasion that we see in 'Day of the Doctor', and also before the three Doctors turn up again in the barn on Gallifrey.

So 'Day' doesn't erase 'End' at all, instead it slots in with it. That means that the Master was present on Gallifrey during the events of 'Day of the Doctor'. So the Master either escaped Gallifrey in some sort of vessel between the beginning of the final Dalek invasion/attack and the Doctor sealing the planet in a pocket universe, or he escaped the pocket universe somehow. I think both are equally likely since he could have just robbed a TARDIS whilst the Daleks were attacking or he could have got through one of the 'cracks in time' that lead to Gallifrey's pocket universe, like when the Time Lords magically sent new lives to the Doctor through the crack in the sky in 'Time of the Doctor'.

So I do think that Missy remarking about being "abandoned," "left for dead," and "Did you think I'd never find my way back?" is in reference to the Master getting sucked into the Time War at the end of 'The End of Time'. Yes he did it willingly for the Doctor (and also to unleash his anger on Rassilon for being the one who made him insane since he was a kid), but the Master was probably expecting the Doctor to return the favour and save him from the Time War again as he probably didn't intend to get sucked in. Now he/she's back and wants revenge on the Doctor for leaving him/her. And what's the best way to do that? Break his favourite toy - planet earth! bounce

I guess we'll find out tomorrow, but it's fun to speculate! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:07 pm

Yeah, there's direct dialogue in "Day of the Doctor" that links the events to "End of Time." The General refers to the Council being in a closed session just as the Doctor steals the moment. Then right before the Doctors arrive to save Gallifrey, the General says that the High Council's Plan Failed.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:25 pm

Scary wrote:
Now he/she's back and wants revenge on the Doctor for leaving him/her. And what's the best way to do that?

Apparently snogging him at first sight.

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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:55 am

Maybe the Master just climbed out of the painting like the three Doctors and Clara, after everyone left UNIT HQ!?
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:42 am

TinDogRory wrote:
Yeah, there's direct dialogue in "Day of the Doctor" that links the events to "End of Time." The General refers to the Council being in a closed session just as the Doctor steals the moment. Then right before the Doctors arrive to save Gallifrey, the General says that the High Council's Plan Failed.

Oh I missed that! Awesome! My OCD for smooth canon is satisfied. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:34 pm

I got My Doctor Who Watchin' Food Ready

1 Bad Cool Ranch Doritos
bottle of Coke Zero Drink
could not find jammy dodgers
So Pizza with onions
Bottle of Aspirin for Shows Twists and Turns
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:13 pm

That was a pretty great ending to the season!  Poor Osgood!  Danny Pink not completely converting to a Cyberman reminds me of "Closing Time" which I just watched last night.  The love he was feeling was too strong an emotion to eradicate.  That whole bit was so sad, from the moment Cyber-Danny removed his faceplate to flying into the clouds.  It was also sad that Danny didn't come back, but sent the child he killed by accident instead.  Then the Doctor and Clara lying to each other at the end...

Now I'm wondering if the Brigadier is patrolling the Earth as a Cyber-leader (note the black bands on his head gear)... he didn't blow up!  And I wonder if Missy was shot by him, or if she teleported away.  I hate to think "they keep killing Kenny" will apply to the Master.  S/He's always cheated death!

And next time... SANTA!! cheers santa It was bound to happen some time!
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:29 pm

Rogue wrote:
And I wonder if Missy was shot by him, or if she teleported away.  I hate to think "they keep killing Kenny" will apply to the Master.  S/He's always cheated death!

Knowing The Master and how he operates, there's no way he'd just 'lay down and die'...  unless he knew it wasn't the end and had a pre-planned escape route. Just going with tradition Smile

Also:
1) The 'death' had a very similar effect to the teleport effect she used earlier.
2) "You win."  ...  "I know."
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:37 pm

How do you say "What a load of cr*p" in Gallifreyan?

I don't get it. Moffat wrote good stories when RTD ran the show and Coupling was a great show...why is Dr Moff so bland?

And killing the nerd girl was pointless...as apparently were the guards guarding the Mastriss...they didn't notice the cuffs coming off? Just dumb. And Danny boy's contrived death was dumb too. Like a seasoned soldier is going to blindly walk into traffic while talking on his phone.

Although I thought it silly (reallllly tired of Cybermen retaining their host emotions), the Brig saving his daughter was a nice touch.

I also think it a stretch that the "cloud souls" would return to their original bodies, namely Danny.

And what did the Doctor do? He just ran around asking questions. He never did anything! He was told what to do the whole way though!

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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:20 am

Well that was fantastic. Missy was properly the Master and we get a lot of things inferred about their relationship over the years set in (very malleable) stone. Still wish it was the TCE. I am glad that we got a fulfillment of the original plan for the death of the Master, too. Even if it will eventually prove impermanent. I admit, I punched the air when I figured out what was going on with the Brig a half second before it became clear. What a great nod (not an intentional pun!).

Was really annoyed with Osgood's death, in much the same way I was with Lynda with a Y, but I would have been even more annoyed if Kate had died too.

Liked this up and down. Danny really stood out this time, though I wish we got a scene with him earlier with the kid this episode. I was kind of hoping that that phone call in the TARDIS would have been a dead companion calling.

We do have a good "out" for the return of Missy, too. She says she was up and down the Doctor's timeline so we can run into her again "before" this episode. Was hoping we'd get a few more clues as to what happened to the Master.

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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:56 am

Missy is indeed properly the Master.  Killing Osgood really drove it home for me.  I think Missy will come back, but maybe not for a while.  

The Cyber-Danny thing was awesome, finally a small hint of what the HORROR of the Cybermen should be and why they are my favorite villain even though most of the time tonight they were drunk robots or Ironman clones.  

I thought Capaldi was on top of his game, the emotion he showed in his face, was awesome.  

UNIT was great tonight, I like the President Doctor plan and the aircraft brought back memories of the HQ in "Invasion".  And nice to see that head as well.  The Brigadier was very well represented tonight, first the painting then his Cyber-Brig saving the day at the end.  I also wonder if he will turn up again.....maybe with a Cyber-mustache.  So, I got a Master-Doctor-Brigadier episode with Cyberman finally, I just needed Kate to drive up in Bessie.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:32 am

Missy definitely needs to come back. So sad about Osgood. But I was happy that Kate was saved. It was a good episode for the Cyberman. Even as pawns, they had some properly creepy moments.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:06 am

"How do you say "What a load of cr*p" in Gallifreyan?"

MOFFAT!!!! That's How!!!!

OMG what a pure load of MOFFAT that was!!!

As a DW fan of over 35 years I am very angry and sad at this last
episode of the worst season of Doctor Who ever!

I was watching and waiting for something cool to happen the whole time
And other than seeing the Brig's painting I can honestly say I found no
value from this mess at all.

I swear in the final moments I just wanted the Doctor to take control of
the Cyber Army and join the Master in the Conquest of all Time and Space!
Honestly if you think about it and how it could play out it would be a billion
times better than the whole of season 8.
darn Moffat really needs to be gone fast.

The Brigadier becoming a Cyberman left me with a sad feeling knowing the Doctor
is a total failure and wanting a regeneration soon.

Truth be told I think the show should come to an end soon anyway since it seems
the production staff has run bone dry in the idea department.

In a few years after a few Doctor Who movies they should then restart the whole
Whoverse over again from the Begining with the Doctor as a young adult on Galifrey
at the Academy just before he steals the Tardis and begins he life as the Doctor.

Man I feel like someone just punched me in the head and here comes Santa Clause about
to kick me in the balls!
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:12 am

P.S.

I just figured out the meaning of the title too

Death in Heaven was the Death of Doctor Who for this fan
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:15 am

Yeah Davros But it gives us something to do on a Saturday night.  IF my Ex was around still She would have us out Shopping for the Holidays or seeing that new Matthew Mcconaughey Anne Hathaway Film.

Dear Santa  (worked for Amelia ) ,

This is not about the Crack in my wall, Can you please fire the writing staff.  Dr Who basically has Jumped the Shark in Season 8.

The special effects were great I give them that, and Falling from a jet and meeting up with the Tardis James Bond or Dr Song could not have done it better.

It had to be the worst Ending in a Finale they both lie to each other.  He is almost is Rid of the Impossible girl on to have Santa arrive to fix it?  Rose Tyler couldn't fix it at this point lol

Uk we have a guy called Dr Phil on TV over here or Jerry Springer.  They could possibly help out troubled couple.

Ill still watching the Christmas Special cause I'm an optimist and it gets me out of family dinner early
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:36 am

Oh Moffat, what has he done to the show. Did not enjoy the finale and was just waiting for it to do.  Plus, he killed off bloody Osgood - why???? What was the point of the Danny character because, in the end, his death made no impact.  Flying Cyberway - sure let's get a nod in for Iron Man.  The Master lies about finding Gallifrey (another strand that was basically ignored - locating it - this series in favor of the heaven arc).  Plus, Clara and her eyes got top billing in the credits (would love to see an overall breakdown of total airtime between Clara and the Doctor because, for certain, Clara most definitely would take the top spot).  So that made about three good episodes over the enter series - pathetic.  And what do we have to look forward to - Santa Claus - ughhhhh.  Hopefully a new NON-mysterious companion will be introduced.

I do want to point out that Capaldi could be one of the best Doctors but he needs proper writing / stories which were just not there.


Last edited by CrochetOwl on Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:32 pm

Keep putting Junk scripts like that into production it really will be.

DR WHO???????????????

OSgood switching from the Scarf to Bow ties and yes they are still cool, was one of the bright spots.

Agree with crotchetowl about the clara eyes in the intro

Question Who Fans can Moffat and his team Regenerate?

Can someone make a survey page. Who will watch the Christmas special or something to that affect
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:51 pm

So... wait... where did Orson Pink come from, then? Wasn't he their grandchild (or great)? I almost expected a revelation that Clara was pregnant.

Based on what Nick Frost's Santa said... We'll get more Clara at Christmas. Maybe Santa is a necromancer and can bring Danny back. Anyway, another goofy Christmas special on its way.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:43 pm

I liked it! Missy/The Master was great! I think my internal conflict over her last week was caused by the fact that I don't like the idea of either the Master or the Doctor changing gender, but I really enjoyed her very 'Masterly' portrayal of the role. And that's cemented for me in this episode. She really is great as the Master. She certainly has that "bananas" vibe about her for sure. She's absolutely insane and I love it.

Does that mean I like the idea of the Master changing gender? Well I think I've certainly been won over, but I couldn't handle the Doctor regenerating gender I think. The Master is one thing but the Doctor would be a step too far.

Although I enjoyed Missy a lot, I'm left unsure about some major parts of the plot that I'd appreciate some help on:

-Why was she keeping the Doctor and Clara together? It's touched upon but I didn't understand.
-What was her plan behind all of this exactly? Why did she give the Doctor the Cybermen? Revenge? I don't understand the business about "I want my friend back"?


Sad to see Osgood go. I think she was even more likeable in this episode than her previous appearances. The idea of her becoming a companion was pretty cool. Kate was also very good in this episode and I'm glad she survived, even though it meant butchering the Brigadier to save her... Not sure how I feel about that. I guess if we hadn't seen him it would have been obvious that he'd been amongst the Cybermen, but seeing him just poured salt on open wounds I think. I don't like the idea of the Brig now being a Cyberman, but it was nicely done I guess. It was great that he finally got his salute from the Doctor. But what is he gonna do now? Where did he fly off to? Is the next CBBC spin-off going to be 'Alistair the Friendly Cyberman' where he just flies around and saves people Iron Man style? Razz

Speaking of Iron Man, the Cybermen were merely 'decent' in this episode. Certainly the best that they've been used in the Moffat era. However, I think the problem is that they didn't really do anything other than act as Missy's puppets - which did work, yes, but if it's Cybermen doing Cyberman stuff that you be wantin' then this doesn't really deliver. This is more Cybermen doing Master stuff, really. I still enjoyed that though! But it would be nice to actually have a proper Cyberman story where they are the prime focus, not a plot device or an accomplice to some other bad-guy. Oh, and also, their voices are extremely awful. That needs changing quickly. They don't sound good at all.

Talking of good Cybermen, Danny is dead! That was interesting to see. All throughout his Cybie scenes I was focused on how horrible and gruesome his corpse looked in there. Unfortunately, however, I didn't feel much emotional connection to his death. His relationship with Clara has been pretty disjointed throughout the series, only seeing enough to show us that they're in love but not enough for us to actually connect to them and care about the relationship. So the attempts at revving up the emotion in his final scenes fell a bit flat for me. However, I still enjoyed seeing it and it was a nice send-off for him. That being said, I still wish we'd seen a lot more of him and I don't think it was the right time to kill him off.

Gallifrey! What's happening with Gallifrey? I was so let-down when it wasn't there. You probably could have got a little tear out of me if he'd found it, but instead it wasn't there. So where is it then? Missy said earlier in the episode that it's "In another dimension, but it's not lost." So why did the Doctor check in this universe? Missy said it was in the same place, but she may not have meant in this universe. Perhaps it is in the same place but in another universe. So am I missing something, or is the Doctor? I really hope we see it return soon.

All in all, a good episode and a good story. Is it the best? Not at all. But it's enjoyable, and the characters are great, even if they're a bit hard to understand at times. 4/5. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:20 pm

For those lamenting the death of cute lil nerd girl Osgood (yes, I was d*mned p*ssed when she got vaporized and fuming until I fell asleep), fans at the TrekBBS forum presented a possible "out". It's so obvious I felt like a fool for not thinking of it myself.

Maybe that was "Zygon" Osgood!

We don't know what happened upon completion of those "negotiations" in "Day of the Doctor" other than they reached an agreement of sorts. Maybe some of them decided to keep their human forms.

Yeah, it's "out there" and certainly a long shot, but it does provide the opportunity to bring her back.

Sincerely,

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:25 pm

-Why was she keeping the Doctor and Clara together? It's touched upon but I didn't understand.

Missy kept the Doctor and Clara together because she could manipulate Clara into taking the Doctor to he||. We are to assume that Missy had a cyber-driver purposely run over Danny. Clara being deeply in love with Danny would obviously betray the Doctor and force them to search the timelines bringing them into Missy's "he|| trap" in St. Paul's.

Thank you auto-censor for a heck of a good job!
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PostSubject: Re: S8E12: Death in Heaven (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:41 pm

-What was her plan behind all of this exactly? Why did she give the Doctor the Cybermen? Revenge? I don't understand the business about "I want my friend back"?

Missy/Master feels that she and the Doctor are the same and The Doctor just won't admit it. Being one of the last of her kind she wants to reconnect with her childhood friend. Killing the Doctor isn't as good as getting him to admit he's wrong and come over to her side. Missy is self-righteous and knows that she'd be able to handle an army to impose her will. She thinks the Doctor has that same arrogance and will accept the Cyber-Army as a gift and then go on to impose his will across the universe. They'll be best buddies again.


The Doctor points out that the difference between him in the Master is "that thing there" (the cyber-emotion inhibitor). The Doctor is empathetic and feels others pain while Missy is self-consumed.
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