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 S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)

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S8E11: Dark Water
Fantastic!
43%
 43% [ 13 ]
Good
33%
 33% [ 10 ]
Okay...
7%
 7% [ 2 ]
Bad
13%
 13% [ 4 ]
Awful!
3%
 3% [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 30
 

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Evil Monkey Pope
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:39 am

Did you notice that 12's outfit is black minimalist like the Master's previous coatumes whereas Missy's is now Victorian with a dash of whimsy like some of the Doctor's earlier outfits?
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Rogue
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:59 am

Krynoid wrote:
for a split second, when Missy said she was a Time Lady that the Doctor had left behind...I thought they were going to say she was Romana!

For a moment, same here!  That hat Missy was wearing also looked like the one Romana had in Shada.  But then I thought, Romana willingly left the TARDIS back in Warrior's Gate.  heck, even the Master willingly fought against Rassilon and pushed him back into the Time War, but the Master is slippery enough of a person to claim the Doctor abandoned him. Her. I mean her! Smile
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rmlextreme
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:19 am

In the episode Sound of The drums Ten said he would know the master as soon as he saw him, time lords can do that.  So why can't 12 do it.   I went back this morning and watched the beginning of that episode.  Also it looks like from the times we saw her it looks like she doesn't hear the drums in this form plus it would have given the plot away?

So now we have a week to go bonkers with theories
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:00 pm

The 2nd Doctor Roberts wrote:
Okay, the episode was good...I agree that the Cybermen reveal would have been a lot more of a mind-blower if we hadn't seen them all over the trailer for this episode!! C'mon, the Moff!! This could've been Modern Who's "Earthshock" cliffhanger! It wasn't telegraphed at all until the doors closed and we saw the door windows together...It's one thing if internet freaks post spoilers online...that's going to happen. But why blow the "surprise" in your own advertising? Instead of blowing minds, you made people get antsy waiting for the Cybermen to show up. And all the UNIT stuff should not have been in the trailer for this episode.

Still, the story was good. That second "surprise reveal" though...exactly how can the Master claim the Doctor left him for dead? The last we saw of the Master, he "sacrificed" himself to get rid of Rassilion. Missy's claim made me think we were actually going to get something surprising. But to be honest, in each of Missy's appearances this season she looked more and more like Ainley in drag. His Master did like to play dress-up, remember.

Actually, thinking of Missy as a male Master in drag makes the concept go down better for me. I don't really care for the idea, both for the precedent it sets for the next Doctor, and because it's hard to see the chauvinistic Master consenting to walking around as "a girl." (I am presuming he took a Sisterhood of Karn cocktail...I'm looking forward to hearing her story next week.)

I agree, I don't like the precedent either. I am wondering if the change in genders is a result of The Master stealing a body, like he did with Tremas in 'Keeper of Traken' or some other type of interference during a regeneration. We might also be seeing these stories out of order, such as with River Song, and the Doctor hasn't left The Master to die, yet.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:33 pm

So did any of the "next time" scenes from last week appear in this episode? "There is no Clara" and all the UNIT stuff? All they managed to do was ruin the surprise appearance of the Cybermen.

And the Master is back as a female. I kind of figured that out when the Doctor Who news sites ran clips about "Master crossword puzzles" and quizzes in this week's magazines. Obviously the UK press knew who Missy was going to be. At that point I started wondering about using Lucy Saxon to come back could be used as an excuse.

So the Master is a woman and one of the most woefully cliched female villains possible. Obviously the first thing the Master would want to do is kiss the Doctor. If Moffat wanted a lady foil for the Doctor, why not come up with an original character that could rival or surpass the Master in popularity (like what was attempted with the Rani)? Who would think that the best way to make a strong female character is to take a popular male character and put a dress on him? And then make the protagonist and antagonist start kissing... I fear that in years to come this episode may be held in the same laughable contempt as "I'm half human on my mother's side".

Which is a shame because the rest of the scheme of using the Timelord Matrix to fool humans into thinking they're in heaven and then converting them into Cybermen was brilliant. It would have been even better if we didn't already know because the Next Time trailer gave so much away. Had the trailer been a mysterious "what comes after death?" and then we'd had an episode where the villain turned out to be a sinister female Timelord instead of a silly fop in drag; boy I would have voted FANTASTIC.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:36 pm

Also I'm not so sure Clara was written very consistently, again. Another instance where it would be interesting to see if a companion could be tempted by tragedy to betray the Doctor. Sounds like a great story, but not sure if Clara was the right one to explore this with. Much like "Deep Breath" where Clara should be least likely to reject a new Doctor.

Maybe The Moff is on his way out and wants to get these last few ideas out of his system. Doesn't matter that this is the wrong TARDIS team for these stories. While you're head writer you greenlight everything you've ever wanted to experiment with. Good ideas, but they strain credibility with the wrong companion.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:56 pm

It was just okay.  Once again, it was about Clara and Danny, two characters I'm liking less and less (how much air time did the Doctor get compared to everyone else - seems like much lower than the overexposed companions).  As for the big reveal, eh.  Would have preferred the Rani since I could see her hatching up whatever scheme is currently taking place rather than the Master (who should be stuck on Gallifrey but isn't - did s/he sneak through one the cracks?).  Moff continues to muck with DW universe first with the War Doctor now bringing back the Master in the manner he did (kissing the Doctor - just a big fat yuck - they just had to continue with including at least one lip kiss into the current series).
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:50 pm

Very cool. Called it during "Deep Breath" and was a bit surprised it turned out to be true. Love the twisted Mary Poppins vibe. (As for The Master snogging The Doctor, I think we need only look at the tension RTD made between the two for that.) Can't say I understand the hesitancy about the Master becoming a woman. This has been in the cards in some way, shape or form for a while. (I mean, heck, JNT mentioned it being a possibility as far back as Five Doctors.)

A good set up, even if the Cyberman thing was way too telegraphed in the episode. (I imagine that the Cybermen were overemphasized in the press to bury any speculation about Missy.) Very reminiscent of Big Finish's "Human Resources." I was really excited for the St. Pauls scene reenactment but was a little disappointed they didn't escape the fish tanks by busting through them, ala Tomb. This is a really good Cyber-design, too. Best blend of the classic and new series.

The Doctor sure does seem to have a problem figuring stuff out this season. I also enjoyed the call back to "Deep Breath" with "Harvesting human bodies? What am I not remembering?" I did like the idea that the Doctor did notice she had two heartbeats but was so confused by the situation he forgot. (Hence why he kept his hand up.) I imagine that he just was so flustered by her faux-Android impersonation and the kiss that he didn't notice. Also, can we talk about the Doctor calling bull on the whole Nethersphere nonsense? "Why? Was he a idiot?"

Creepy premise, a cool new use of the Cybermen. Seems like the type of plan that Master would have. I, too, was very briefly worried that it would be Romana. Hopefully we can avoid "Moffat Season Ender Syndrome" where the setup is great but the resolution is not good.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:52 pm

I just watched it again, and noticed something at the very end I missed before. Maybe because the shock of the Mistress thing didn't distract me so much. Anyway, just as Danny is about to decide to delete his feelings or not, the I-pad turns slightly and I see the reflection of the boy he killed standing behind him. Then that was it!
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:59 pm

Was anyone else disappointed that Missy's weapon wasn't a TCE?
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:17 pm

TinDogRory wrote:
Was anyone else disappointed that Missy's weapon wasn't a TCE?

Yep, especially the second viewing.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:01 pm



I Paused on danny holdiing the tablet in the final scene after the 6 cybermen march hit pause on your DVRs fast and hold.. Look at the reflection as he as about to touch the iPad you can see tardis round things!!!!

Now the Masters Evil plan Record vs the Doctor is like the Harlem Globetrotters vs the Washington Generals.  The Generals have never ever won a game its part of the show for the past 50-60 years.

Yet the Doctor looked so afraid when Missy revealed her identity to him.   We all know when this wraps up the missy/master will get her Butt kicked per usual.  I think !0 had that look of fear.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:21 pm

I'm not too surprised at the Master now being a woman.  The Master has been grossly misused and screwed around with since The TV Movie, aside from the few glorious minutes he was Derek Jacobi.

The character is even more of a joke now.  All these changes happening off-screen with no suitable explanation is just...ridiculously bad storytelling.  

Box of goo...snake thingy...refuses to regenerate with his dead body being burned and destroyed...bleach blonde, hoodie-wearing Skeletor with lightning hands...and now a sex change, snogging the Doctor...????


Roger Delgado and Anthony Ainley are somewhere are shaking their heads...


Aside from all of that nonsense, I DID like the episode...
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:25 pm

Ronpur wrote:
TinDogRory wrote:
Was anyone else disappointed that Missy's weapon wasn't a TCE?

Yep, especially the second viewing.
Yes, even on the first viewing. We're finally at a point that we could get a good compression on screen (although having it just off-screen will always be more scary as the imagination will always be more gruesome).

Just another reason that Missy didn't seem all that Master-ish. Nor did John Simm who was the Doctor's zany evil-twin rather than the suave Master.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:28 pm

I just wasn't impressed with the story for many reasons:

1. We are too believe that Clara would go to any measure to save Danny, when the whole season shows them as on-and-off again lovers and nowhere the passion that they apparently now have.

2. Moffat was us to believe that throwing all the TARDIS keys into lava will stop the Doctor from using the TARDIS, when he's the one started the whole snapping-fingers-will-open-the-TARDIS thing, and I don't even remember seeing Capaldi unlock the TARDIS doors once.

3. I don't really care about the Master being a woman. Michelle Gomez did a great job. I do wish that they used a new female Time Lord instead of reusing an old character. But then again, she'd probably just end up as a River Song clone.

I did really enjoy Capaldi in the episode. His Doctor seems to be finally balancing out. He's not given anything to do really. There's no way he couldn't have figure out that there were Cybermen or even confront "Missy" about having two hearts. He even just stood there and let the Master kill that guy without even trying to stop her.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:37 pm

SeaDevil wrote:


Roger Delgado and Anthony Ainley are somewhere are shaking their heads...



They're in the nethersphere Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:41 pm

stetsons_are_cool7 wrote:
I do wish that they used a new female Time Lord instead of reusing an old character.

That's kind of where I was going with my post, but I failed to include this point.  Missy being the Master added NOTHING important to the story in my opinion.  I think she would have been just as effective as a character if she were somebody else. 

...I just couldn't get off my rant of another stupid twist further ruining what once was a great foe and the Doctor's match in a game of wits.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:21 pm

And how many would be moaning that she could have been the Master if they went with an unknown Time Lord? It really would have no impact whatsoever. "Tremble in fear before... well, we never actually met." As for adding "nothing important" to the story... Well, it's a two parter ain't it? There's still quite a bit of stuff that needs to be sorted out, least of which is The Master's focus on Clara. (Maybe because there are so many of her in the Nethersphere?)

I must say, I'm finding a lot of fans reactions to Missy to be really disappointing. Such odd limits put on characters that have the potential for infinite change. "I don't like this Second Doctor! The Doctor was always gray haired! He should be gray! He must be some new Time Lord."

By the way, what exactly was the deal with the Post It Notes in the opening scene? It seemed ominous but disappeared almost immediately. Kind of like there's another plot going on but Danny's death interrupts it.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:39 pm

Any one notice that the building this all took place in is bigger on the inside.  If missy stole the mind sphere maybe she stole a tardis.  

This also explains who gave Clara the Tardis Phone number at the beginning her time with 11.  Missy wanted clara to be with the doctor as part of her evil plan. (a plan the dr will ruin as usual)

Tin I think if missy was played by a hotter actress lol.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:06 pm

TinDogRory wrote:
By the way, what exactly was the deal with the Post It Notes in the opening scene? It seemed ominous but disappeared almost immediately. Kind of like there's another plot going on but Danny's death interrupts it.

Clara had discovered some kind of overall series arch-plot that the Doctor was manipulating behind the scenes? She seemed to have trying to figure out if there was a pattern to the recent travels.

But you're right, this is quickly dropped. Maybe they'll pick this thread up again next week given all the stuff from the preview that we haven't seen yet. She'll figure out that the Doctor has been up to something (seventh doctor-ish) which will lead up to Christmas.

Hopefully Missy will be a little more evil and less playful and flirty. Kinda writing to the worst possible stereotype of female villains if they cannot stay focused on evil.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:53 pm

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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:43 pm

TinDogRory wrote:
I must say, I'm finding a lot of fans reactions to Missy to be really disappointing. Such odd limits put on characters that have the potential for infinite change. "I don't like this Second Doctor! The Doctor was always gray haired! He should be gray! He must be some new Time Lord."

Doctor Who fans, the worst critics of the show Wink I suppose I never considered myself a fan. I just like it Smile

I also thought of the finger-snap-opens-the-TARDIS thing when Clara was tossing all of the keys into the lava. I was expecting the Doctor to snap his fingers after all the keys were gone.

I wonder if Danny will really be dead, and if Clara leaves the Doctor because it turns out he can't save him after all. Like Tegan's departure, too much death, danger, and destruction.

The Master gender-swapping... everyone forgot about the Corsair?? Besides all the references to Time Lord gender-swapping in the past (as mentioned before).
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:25 pm

I would have been more thrilled if it was The Rani.
And like others have mentioned this plot was something
really twisted that she would think up anyway.
Hopefully she's lying to the Doctor just to throw him off
and she's killed by the John Simm Master at the end of the story.

Also in a BBC trailer for Dark Water I saw a shot of Adric
which would be a sick twist for him to die fighting the Cybermen
only to be downloaded as one of them to fight the Doctor later.
Really twisted and I would hate to think the other dead companions
would end up this way as well.

I wish Moffat could follow through on his imagination instead of leaving it up to us.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:47 am

The Rani wasn't copendent on the Doctor so it'd be a bigger insult to take an independent villainess & make her obsess over him like a lovesick stalker.
I thought the post-it notes were just Clara attempting to organize her thoughts for confessing to Danny.
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PostSubject: Re: S8E11: Dark Water (SPOILERS)   Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:39 am

From all I have heard about this season, and this story in particular, I am not going to even bother to watch it when it hits PBS. And I was really looking forward to Capaldi playing the Doctor.

(Maybe they should just cancel the programme and call it a legend)
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